Compare and contrast

[hawkwing_lb]

Kate Elliott (kateelliott), "Looking for women in historically-based fantasy worlds."

...[W]omen found ways to accomplish plenty of “things” big and small, personal and political. Maybe they did it behind a screen, or around the corner, or in the back room or in a parlor, or ran the brewery they inherited from a deceased husband, but they did all kinds of stuff that was either never noticed or was elided from historical accounts. So much of our view of what women “did” in the past is mediated through accounts written by men who either didn’t see women or were so convinced (yes, I’m looking at you, Aristotle, but you are but one among many) that women were an inferior creature that what they wrote was not only biased but selectively blind. Even now, in “modern” day, so much is mediated by our assumptions about what “doing” means and by our prejudices and misconceptions about the past.

Foz Meadows, "The Problem of R. Scott Bakker."

Or, to put it another way, Bakker writes:

-for an exclusively male audience,
-in the male gaze,
-using sexualised evil commited by men against women,
-in pornographic detail,
-in the apparent belief that rape is an inevitable part of male psychology,
-with the deliberate aim of omitting strong female characters

and doesn’t understand why feminist readers characterise him as sexist and misogynistic; or, at the absolute least, not feminist. Indeed, the idea that writing positively both for and about women is integral to being a feminist writer seems never to have occurred to him.

And interesting juxtaposition on my reading list this morning, don't you think?

Comments

[rose-lemberg.livejournal.com]

Ok. So. Thing is, there are as many opinions about what feminism is as there are feminists. The fact that someone who self-identifies as feminist says something that irritates you and with which you disagree does not mean that you are excluded. Please don't go :) I am a feminist and I know what a tomboy grin is and I totally am not committed to only writing positive female characters. In fact, I sometimes (often?) have arguments about this with feminist-id'd writers.

My thing is to just write a lot of female characters. A variety. Very many are deeply flawed. Some are villains. Some are protagonists. Etc. But a lot of genre books and films/shows only have one token woman, and that woman ... many readers and viewers feel that she needs to be perfect. Diversity and variety takes care of this, imho.

I am not going to argue this with Bakker, though.

[katallen.livejournal.com]

Sadly the argument being presented above is that certain people get to tell other people they're not feminists, using their personal definition of feminism, a definition which also leaves me out in the cold.

What you're espousing is an inclusive feminism and I like inclusive feminism :) But right at the moment there's a lot of unpleasant comment being made (including the one more or less attempting to erase tomboys as a distinct and distinctive social group) which is making me want to shove certain people up against the wall and show them my tomboy grin :D

[rose-lemberg.livejournal.com]

I am not arguing with your points, but I wonder if you consider Bakker a feminist? Why yes/no?

[katallen.livejournal.com]

I don't know the man. I'm pretty sure I haven't read any of his work. I have no data to work with.

According to some people his books have failed to do what he thought they would -- but that's a subjective opinion (and from unreliable sources who're not in his stated target audience, so I don't even know if it's a general audience failure or just an individual reader one) But even if his books fail, that wouldn't actually mean he isn't a feminist writer -- just an over ambitious or under achieving one. I've heard plenty of grandious claims from writers in the past, some I believe and some I do not... but those are judgement calls, they're not facts. (I know I have serious intent with several of my books/stories -- I know some people who've read my work get that and some people skim on the surface story and don't suspect anything else is going on (and some suspect and get annoyed at me))

His writing not being feminist doesn't mean that he, as a person, is not a feminist. The idea that a reader can always read the secrets of an authors heart in their writing is... not my experience of the majority of readers

And beyond the clear lack of data as to exactly what thoughts are in Mr Bakker's head and how they relate to a particular definition of feminism -- mine doubtless being different from that of ROH or FZ or our hostess -- I am generally uncomfortable about people being forcibly defined by other people. Which is not to say that a person cannot, with a degree of respect, discuss any problem they have with a person's self-identification, but this has not been at any time about reasoned consideration. It has also led to people making a lot of statements about what people can and cannot write which also define me (that's pretty much how it goes when certain kinds of people get to making up the rules they want other people to live by).

You want a yes/no answer -- and anyone who knows me knows I'm not big on those. Some people are exclusionists -- they like the simplest possible boxes -- us or them -- gay or straight -- capitalist or communist -- black or white. They like division because they like to belong to a group and despise or denigrate those belonging to the other group. They get freaked out by the existance of tomboys or bisexuals (and often try to pretend these people don't exist or really truly belong in one of the other groups and are just wrong about themselves)

My answer to is Mr Bakker a feminist is -- maybe yes, maybe no...

My questions to you are -- why does it matter to you whether he is or isn't a feminist ? and why should it matter enough to me for me to have formed an opinion?

[rose-lemberg.livejournal.com]

My questions to you are -- why does it matter to you whether he is or isn't a feminist?

Bakker interests me only marginally, as friends and people on my friends-list blog about him. I have no intention of reading his books, but I have by now read enough of his actual stated opinions in blog posts and comments to believe I have enough data to form an opinion of my own. (Note that I am not saying that everybody should have formed an opinion from this, only that I have). I have not engaged with him directly, and have no plans to do so. However, the discussions around Bakker interest me.

and why should it matter enough to me for me to have formed an opinion?

We are commenting in an entry about Bakker's feminism or lack thereof; this seems to be the topic proposed by our hostess.

You want a yes/no answer -- and anyone who knows me knows I'm not big on those. Some people are exclusionists -- they like the simplest possible boxes
I wonder if you are implying here that I am exclusionist or want to put people in boxes?

In any case, I really do not have a quarrel with you; you are entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to mine.

[katallen.livejournal.com]

I wasn't clear enough -- why does it matter to *you*? You have formed an opinion -- why have you bothered to form an opinion about a man you do not know and whose works you have no intention of reading? Why does it matter, to you, if he considers himself to be a feminist? Why do you feel the need to ask me my opinion of whether he is a feminist (especially as I had not at any point discussed his feminism but was talking about my own)

And similarly why should it matter to me if Bakker is a feminist or not is my clumsy was of asking why it should matter to me that a person who I do not know, whose work I will probably not read, and who so far as I know has no more influence than any other person who has published an mid-level SFF book if he is a feminist or just calls himself a feminist?

We are commenting in an entry about Bakker's feminism or lack thereof; this seems to be the topic proposed by our hostess.

I think you'll find that I am commenting in an entry of which at least half is not about Bakker at all (except perhaps very indirectly) and which also contains a quote about Bakker not being a feminist because he didn't understand that to be a feminist writer you have to write positively for and about women. I responded to how that definition of feminism was forcing a definition of feminism on Bakker which I would also have difficulty meeting, and that I resented that being done to me.

I wonder if you are implying here that I am exclusionist or want to put people in boxes?

I guess then I should take this statement as implying that I was lying when I identified you as an inclusive feminist? That I am not responding honestly to your comments but in some way maligning you, a total stranger who I smilied at! Me, I thought I was making the point that dichotemous questions are often used for less than wholesome purposes, and that that is why I'm not overly fond of 'simple' yes/no answers for questions like 'are you a feminist?'. If it was meant to be an implication it would have been a very indirect one -- and I have absolutely not reason not to have made it more directly or simply accused you as you just accused me.

It's curious, that when I ask you a direct question about why you think the question 'is bakker a feminist' is important, or should be important (the question was never about him but about your asking it)... you duck an answer, accuse me of an implied insult (well I presume you considered it an insult), annouce you have no quarrel with me and that I am free to have an opinion on something I've stated I don't have an opinion about and that you have a right to your opinion, which I have not at any point questioned (although I do reserve the right to question why certain people feel the need to force their opinions and definitions on others -- including Mr Bakker)

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Kat, you know I respect you very much, I hope? But I would like to ask you to let this thread go now?

Hosting a discussion about who meant what by which words when and whether it matters to anyone personally if Bakker as a human being is feminist or not (as opposed to whether or not he fails in his goals as a writer) is not something I feel comfortable doing when my internet access may be spotty for the next day or so.

Otherwise I will feel compelled to respond with inappropriate humour and off-topic lolcats. Like:



(Possibly this is a sign I am still whacked out on cold drugs.)