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hawkwing_lbI cajoled fadeaccompli into keeping me company while I try to brush the rust off some of my ancient Greek with Lucian. One tiny section a week.
Greek is hard, and Greek is cool, and more people should learn it: so I share my (and then our) combined efforts below.
Also Lucian is batshit and brilliant.
Lucian, TRUE HISTORY
A1. Ὠσπερ τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς καὶ περὶ τὴν τῶν σωμάτων ἐπιμέλειαν ἀσχολουμένοις οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων φροντίς ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως — μέρος γοῦν τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν — οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν.
Ὠσπερ τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς καὶ περὶ τὴν τῶν σωμάτων ἐπιμέλειαν ἀσχολουμένοις οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων φροντίς ἐστιν,
Ὠσπερ
just exactly as/even as/like as
τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς
[dative pl] the athletics/for athlete
ἀσχολουμένοις
[dative plural present participle, agreement with ἀθλητικοῖς? serving as noun?] ones engaging/occupying
καὶ περὶ τὴν ...ἐπιμέλειαν
also concerning [περὶ + accusative] the care/diligence
τῶν σωμάτων
of the living bodies
οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον
not [genitive noun] of the good habit of bodies alone
οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων
nor of the bodily exercises
φροντίς ἐστιν
a mind(/power of thought) is
...Just as the athletic ones engaging themselves in care/diligence concerning their living bodies, not for good health alone and not for bodily exercises a mind is
A mind is just like athletic people who engage themselves with diligence concerning their bodies, not just for good health or physical exercise,
ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως
ἀλλὰ
but
καὶ
and/also
τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως
τῆς γινομένης ἀνέσεως
for producing relaxation
κατά καιρὸν
according to proportion/due measure
...but also for producing relaxation according to proportion.
but also in due measure to relax.
— μέρος γοῦν τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν —
μέρος
a part/a share
γοῦν
at least then/indeed therefore
τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
τῆς ἀσκήσεως
of the exercise
τὸ μέγιστον
the biggest/largest
αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
they undertake
αὐτὴν
[sing fem accusative] itself/herself.
... - indeed, they undertake the greatest part of the exercise for its own sake -
οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν.
οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι
οὕτω δὴ καὶ
in this way also
ἡγοῦμαι
I lead the way
τοῖς ... ἐσπουδακόσιν
[dative plural pluperfect participle] for the ones having busied
περὶ τοὺς λόγους
concerning the words/discourses/thinkings/reasonings
...in this manner likewise, I lead the way for those who have been busy about exercises of the mind
προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων
προσήκειν
to be present/come to be
μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν ... ἀνάγνωσιν
among/after much reading/recognition
τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων
of the most earnest/serious [ones/things]
ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
ἀνιέναι
to approach/sail up/go out
τε τὴν διάνοιαν
both the mind/thought/intellectual capacity
καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
and thereafter to made ready towards (contrive upon?) the most vigorous labour.
...to be present after much reading of the most serious ones, to sail out upon the mind and thereafter to contrive upon the most vigorous labour
...to come to be, after much reading of the most serious sort, to sail out upon the seas of thought and then make ready the most prime labour.
My first translation looked like:
A mind is just like athletic people who engage themselves with diligence concerning their bodies, not just for good health or physical exercise ,but also in due measure to relax - indeed, they undertake the greatest part of the exercise for its own sake - in this manner likewise, I lead the way for those who have been busy about exercises of the mind
to come to be, after much reading of the most serious sort, to sail out upon the thought and then make ready the most prime labour.
But, as I said,fadeaccompli was also engaged upon Lucian with me. This conversation followed:
fade: I have taken things very differently in places! Let me show you mine.
"Just as even athletes have the attention, when occupying themselves with concern for their bodies, for not only good health and bodily exercises, but also for loosening up as appropriate--understanding that /this/ is the greatest share of training--so also I think that it is a concern for those paying attention to words to loosen up their great attention for reading about important things and prepare for the vigorous toil that comes next."
fade: There are a loooot of words in here with multiple meanings.
And I took the main verb of the first clause as being part of the simile, which may be entirely wrong. (And thus 'a mind is to (dative performers)' => 'these people pay attention to'.)
hawkwing_lb: I will get my Oxford Lucian and see what Costa translated it all as
"Those who are interested in athletics and the care of their bodies are concerned not just with keeping themselves in good condition and well exercised, but with timely relaxation: indeed, they regard this as the most important part of training. In the same way, I think it does students of literature good, after hard and serious reading, to relax their minds and invigorate them further for future efforts."
Hmm. So my misunderstanding of the first sentence hinges on φροντίς ἐστιν
fade: --after! /After/.
fade: Dammit, I should've caught that 'after'.
I also missed the part where 'it is present for (dative)' can mean 'it is good for (dative).
hawkwing_lb: and of the second bit, my misunderstanding hinges on ἡγοῦμαι
(more thinking, less leading)
and I did not know that that was a dative function.
fade: I may be wrong about the dative.
It helps for me that I was taught ἡγοῦμαι as 'to think' first.
And then learned the 'lead' version later.
...which occasionally throws me off in military passages when I am trying to figure out what the commander is thinking at his soldiers.
hawkwing_lb: "after much serious reading, to go out on the mind and to prepare for further vigorous labour thereafter."
whereas my introduction to Greek was the NT.
and there ἡγοῦμαι is almost always leading the way
so the first bit... can you walk me through how you connected φροντίς ἐστιν to the rest of it?
because I am staring at this simile-construction in baffled confusion
"Just as it is a mind for the athletic things"?
fade: Sure! Half a sec.
Okay. The main thing was that I had a bunch of people in the dative, and the leading-in word doesn't usually take datives as a thing.
Like, I think I've seen it used with just a noun, or noun and participle, but those would be (I think) either in the accusative, or in the same form as what they were being compared to.
So it /needed/ some sort of clear subject; it couldn't be taking that whole participial set as its entire clause when it was all dative.
Thus I went down and found our nominative and verb, and went, okay, "a mind is...what? A mind is just like these things? But if the mind is like these things, they wouldn't be dative."
Which told me that frontis was probably being used in a more abstract sense; I've seen it before, though usually in the sense of "There was a mind to Themistocles to do X," i.e., "Themistocles paid attention to X."
So I finally had a use for those dative athletes. They were paying attention... Which meant their dative matching participle was now circumstantial, not the main thing they were doing.
And it followed from there.
Oh! And!
Once I pulled out the --clause-- bit, that helped too.
Because in Greek comp we had a whole section on things being compared where it was "The X was as big as the Y" where the Greek phrases it as "So big the Y, thus big the X."
So when the /second/ half of the sentence had that outw, I went, ohhh, okay, these two words are being used to coordinate the big long clauses that are compared to each other, and thus 'frontis estin' /has/ to be part of the first one, not a separate main verb.
So the final translation looks more like:
Just as for athletes there is a mind
Just as athletes pay attention when they occupy themselves with care for their bodies, not only for good health and bodily exercises but for relaxation in due measure - for they understand this to be the greatest share of the exercise - likewise I think [it is good] for those who busy themselves with literature, after the most serious sort of reading, to go out on the mind and to prepare for more vigorous labour thereafter.
There you have it. I spent a good hour on eight lines of Lucian.
Greek: still hard.
fadeaccompli into keeping me company while I try to brush the rust off some of my ancient Greek with Lucian. One tiny section a week.Greek is hard, and Greek is cool, and more people should learn it: so I share my (and then our) combined efforts below.
Also Lucian is batshit and brilliant.
Lucian, TRUE HISTORY
A1. Ὠσπερ τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς καὶ περὶ τὴν τῶν σωμάτων ἐπιμέλειαν ἀσχολουμένοις οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων φροντίς ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως — μέρος γοῦν τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν — οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν.
Ὠσπερ τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς καὶ περὶ τὴν τῶν σωμάτων ἐπιμέλειαν ἀσχολουμένοις οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων φροντίς ἐστιν,
Ὠσπερ
just exactly as/even as/like as
τοῖς ἀθλητικοῖς
[dative pl] the athletics/for athlete
ἀσχολουμένοις
[dative plural present participle, agreement with ἀθλητικοῖς? serving as noun?] ones engaging/occupying
καὶ περὶ τὴν ...ἐπιμέλειαν
also concerning [περὶ + accusative] the care/diligence
τῶν σωμάτων
of the living bodies
οὐ τῆς εὐεξίας μόνον
not [genitive noun] of the good habit of bodies alone
οὐδὲ τῶν γυμνασίων
nor of the bodily exercises
φροντίς ἐστιν
a mind(/power of thought) is
...Just as the athletic ones engaging themselves in care/diligence concerning their living bodies, not for good health alone and not for bodily exercises a mind is
A mind is just like athletic people who engage themselves with diligence concerning their bodies, not just for good health or physical exercise,
ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως
ἀλλὰ
but
καὶ
and/also
τῆς κατά καιρὸν γινομένης ἀνέσεως
τῆς γινομένης ἀνέσεως
for producing relaxation
κατά καιρὸν
according to proportion/due measure
...but also for producing relaxation according to proportion.
but also in due measure to relax.
— μέρος γοῦν τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν —
μέρος
a part/a share
γοῦν
at least then/indeed therefore
τῆς ἀσκήσεως τὸ μέγιστον αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
τῆς ἀσκήσεως
of the exercise
τὸ μέγιστον
the biggest/largest
αὐτὴν ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
ὑπολαμβάνουσιν
they undertake
αὐτὴν
[sing fem accusative] itself/herself.
... - indeed, they undertake the greatest part of the exercise for its own sake -
οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν.
οὕτω δὴ καὶ τοῖς περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐσπουδακόσιν ἡγοῦμαι
οὕτω δὴ καὶ
in this way also
ἡγοῦμαι
I lead the way
τοῖς ... ἐσπουδακόσιν
[dative plural pluperfect participle] for the ones having busied
περὶ τοὺς λόγους
concerning the words/discourses/thinkings/reasonings
...in this manner likewise, I lead the way for those who have been busy about exercises of the mind
προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων ἀνάγνωσιν ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
προσήκειν μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων
προσήκειν
to be present/come to be
μετὰ τὴν πολλὴν ... ἀνάγνωσιν
among/after much reading/recognition
τῶν σπουδαιοτέρων
of the most earnest/serious [ones/things]
ἀνιέναι τε τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
ἀνιέναι
to approach/sail up/go out
τε τὴν διάνοιαν
both the mind/thought/intellectual capacity
καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἔπειτα κάματον ἀκμαιοτέραν παρασκευάζειν
and thereafter to made ready towards (contrive upon?) the most vigorous labour.
...to be present after much reading of the most serious ones, to sail out upon the mind and thereafter to contrive upon the most vigorous labour
...to come to be, after much reading of the most serious sort, to sail out upon the seas of thought and then make ready the most prime labour.
My first translation looked like:
A mind is just like athletic people who engage themselves with diligence concerning their bodies, not just for good health or physical exercise ,but also in due measure to relax - indeed, they undertake the greatest part of the exercise for its own sake - in this manner likewise, I lead the way for those who have been busy about exercises of the mind
to come to be, after much reading of the most serious sort, to sail out upon the thought and then make ready the most prime labour.
But, as I said,
fadeaccompli was also engaged upon Lucian with me. This conversation followed:fade: I have taken things very differently in places! Let me show you mine.
"Just as even athletes have the attention, when occupying themselves with concern for their bodies, for not only good health and bodily exercises, but also for loosening up as appropriate--understanding that /this/ is the greatest share of training--so also I think that it is a concern for those paying attention to words to loosen up their great attention for reading about important things and prepare for the vigorous toil that comes next."
fade: There are a loooot of words in here with multiple meanings.
And I took the main verb of the first clause as being part of the simile, which may be entirely wrong. (And thus 'a mind is to (dative performers)' => 'these people pay attention to'.)
hawkwing_lb: I will get my Oxford Lucian and see what Costa translated it all as
"Those who are interested in athletics and the care of their bodies are concerned not just with keeping themselves in good condition and well exercised, but with timely relaxation: indeed, they regard this as the most important part of training. In the same way, I think it does students of literature good, after hard and serious reading, to relax their minds and invigorate them further for future efforts."
Hmm. So my misunderstanding of the first sentence hinges on φροντίς ἐστιν
fade: --after! /After/.
fade: Dammit, I should've caught that 'after'.
I also missed the part where 'it is present for (dative)' can mean 'it is good for (dative).
hawkwing_lb: and of the second bit, my misunderstanding hinges on ἡγοῦμαι
(more thinking, less leading)
and I did not know that that was a dative function.
fade: I may be wrong about the dative.
It helps for me that I was taught ἡγοῦμαι as 'to think' first.
And then learned the 'lead' version later.
...which occasionally throws me off in military passages when I am trying to figure out what the commander is thinking at his soldiers.
hawkwing_lb: "after much serious reading, to go out on the mind and to prepare for further vigorous labour thereafter."
whereas my introduction to Greek was the NT.
and there ἡγοῦμαι is almost always leading the way
so the first bit... can you walk me through how you connected φροντίς ἐστιν to the rest of it?
because I am staring at this simile-construction in baffled confusion
"Just as it is a mind for the athletic things"?
fade: Sure! Half a sec.
Okay. The main thing was that I had a bunch of people in the dative, and the leading-in word doesn't usually take datives as a thing.
Like, I think I've seen it used with just a noun, or noun and participle, but those would be (I think) either in the accusative, or in the same form as what they were being compared to.
So it /needed/ some sort of clear subject; it couldn't be taking that whole participial set as its entire clause when it was all dative.
Thus I went down and found our nominative and verb, and went, okay, "a mind is...what? A mind is just like these things? But if the mind is like these things, they wouldn't be dative."
Which told me that frontis was probably being used in a more abstract sense; I've seen it before, though usually in the sense of "There was a mind to Themistocles to do X," i.e., "Themistocles paid attention to X."
So I finally had a use for those dative athletes. They were paying attention... Which meant their dative matching participle was now circumstantial, not the main thing they were doing.
And it followed from there.
Oh! And!
Once I pulled out the --clause-- bit, that helped too.
Because in Greek comp we had a whole section on things being compared where it was "The X was as big as the Y" where the Greek phrases it as "So big the Y, thus big the X."
So when the /second/ half of the sentence had that outw, I went, ohhh, okay, these two words are being used to coordinate the big long clauses that are compared to each other, and thus 'frontis estin' /has/ to be part of the first one, not a separate main verb.
So the final translation looks more like:
Just as athletes pay attention when they occupy themselves with care for their bodies, not only for good health and bodily exercises but for relaxation in due measure - for they understand this to be the greatest share of the exercise - likewise I think [it is good] for those who busy themselves with literature, after the most serious sort of reading, to go out on the mind and to prepare for more vigorous labour thereafter.
There you have it. I spent a good hour on eight lines of Lucian.
Greek: still hard.
