The Cat: help, please?

[hawkwing_lb]

Um. What do you guys know about viruses of the mouth which affect cats?

We took the boy to the vet today, because his gums are red rather than pink and look swollen, he's been drooling more and smellier than usual (also yellower), and he's been only picking at his hard food. Although wet food still equals nom nom nom, apparently.

It's been what, three years since this cat saw a vet? Yeah, bad human, I know. But vets are expensive, and I'm a student, and it never seemed particularly urgent.

So the vet, who's an unpersonable country bloke in his mid-forties, pokes around in the boy's mouth for half a minute, and says, mouth virus, recurring, needs steroids and antibiotics to treat, also cleaning of the mouth and removal of any loose teeth. And oh, since it's most likely a recurring thing, maybe you want to think about having him put down if it comes back again.

This is a cat who's, admittedly, never been very energetic, and gets bullied by every other creature in the neighbourhood, most of the time. We got him as a rescue cat, and he's always had a bit of a limp, too.

But, um. Vets recommend putting down cats who have treatable mouth viruses? Who are still eating and purring and otherwise much as they've always been?

The boy's only about four, four and half years old, and hell, if it is a recurring thing it's going to be a hell of an expense and an annoyance, what with the whole mouth-cleaning and steroids costing hundred forty euro and needing to feed him pills. But if it's an expense that only happens once or twice a year I'm damn well up for it.

The vet, who I started out disliking and now rather distrust, since I'm really rather opposed to euthanising animals unless they're beyond help (I figure if you take home an animal, you ought to front up and not euthanise them unless they're in the same kind of straits where you could see the merits for euthanising a human, because sentience is one of those tricky ethical propositions where I do not buy your average humans are the only sentient species on the planet crap. Although I own to hypocrisy, since I do eat meat.) - the vet now suggests that we should leave the cat in tomorrow night for the mouth-cleaning operation the following morning, and oh, if it turns out he has cancer of the mouth or something, said vet will call us.

Which we're doing. Although I really wish I'd gone alone, and not had the parent with me (the parent has a car, which is necessary for cat transport) since that meant the vet talked at the parent, and not to me, and the parent will get the call, not me.

Well, to the extent said vet spoke clearly to us as people, rather than as annoyances getting in the way of his (possibly I project, but he was definitely not a personable person) bottom line, he spoke at the parent.

(Which is probably all to the good, since I have lately discovered within me a boundless rage for specialists who fail to explain themselves clearly or talk down to people. They have joined politicians and missionaries among the category of people I would rather punch than talk to.)

But, mouth viruses. Can any knowledgeable sort point me at more information, please?

Comments

[davefreer.livejournal.com]

This is not my field - but I number a number of vets as friends (no- I do not call them after hours to ask them work questions). Next time, find a different vet. I am not an expert but unless there is a secondary infection antibiotics are ineffective aginst viral infections. Why did he prescribe those (ie- is there a clear secondary problem)

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

I think the inflammation of the gums has to be bacterial. I do not know why Unhelpful!Vet was talking of viruses, unless he suspects FIV.

[grouchy-teacher.livejournal.com]

Hi. I see you on E. Bear's flist frequently. My own cat had similar symptoms to yours. Did the vet rattle off a 20-something or so syllable name for it? It wasn't just sores in the mouth for my kitty, but down her throat, as well as swelling. It hurt to eat the dry food, so she lost weight she couldn't afford to lose.

For my cat, the steroids worked wonders for a very long time. (I never caved in to the tooth-pulling suggestion.) Eventually it became a matter of what would cause her death first--the underlying disease or the treatment as the steroids had less and less beneficial effect and needed to be given more frequently for any effect at all. The disease won, but she had nearly two years of good quality life before then.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Nope. It's just an inflammation of the gums so far. Helpful vet was helpful. Not. After some googling around, I suspect the virus thing is a red herring, and the primary problem is a bacterial infection in the mouth.

Because I think even vets need to do tests to be sure that a cat has FIV or feline leukemia virus.

[txanne.livejournal.com]

Antibiotics for a VIRUS???

I'm just a cat-owner, but what it sounds like to me is ordinary dental problems. Can you possibly afford a visit to a different vet?

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

That was my first thought, too. (Except for the cat-owning part.) But...antibiotics? For a _virus_? Something is fishy here, and it's not just kitty's breath.

Second opinion makes sense to me, too.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

I need to to look for another vet, it is true. I'll let this one clean the boy's mouth first, though, because I can't afford to arrange another visit just yet.

(Also, don't really want to let that job go very much longer, since even I can tell his gums are inflamed.)

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

I do not know why the vet was talking about viruses. I think the inflammation of the mouth has probably bacterial, unless vet is on crack when mentioning antibiotics. The visit was along the lines of, 'Oh, cat. Oh, mouth. Oh, probably a virus. Recurring, maybe think about putting him down. Hmmmmm. Steroids, cleaning. Hmmmmmm. Steroids, antibiotics as pills.'

He's the only vet for miles around. I need to investigate whether I can get to and afford another one. But I've already agreed to the mouth-cleaning with that one, so provided the boy survives the experience, I'll see about looking for another.

Because this response is rather confirming my suspicion that Unhelpful!Vet was talking rubbish at me, whether or not he knows what he's doing.

[txanne.livejournal.com]

Eesh. Incompetent or lying because he thinks you don't get it.

Do the steroids and the mouth-cleaning. Do the antibiotics only if the other two don't help.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Or confused himself. Which I suppose would fall under not especially competent.

Either than, or the cat has a virus and a bacterial infection, and to be honest, he doesn't seem sick enough for that. (I would expect him to be more than usually pathetic, if that is the case.)

[stillnotbored.livejournal.com]

Okay, experienced cat owner here.

I had a cat with a problem like this . Lots of drooling, went off dry food because it hurt to eat it. Skeeter was older than your guy, but still not near ready to be put down.

Give him all the meds the vet gives you this time. Antibiotic, steroids, all of it. The twit probably didn't say so, but the ulcers in the gums can harbor secondary infections which can lead to the cat being very sick. Also, if the vet pulls any teeth the antibiotics fight any infection that might try to take root in the empty tooth socket.

There is a virus, the name of which I can't remember, that causes this syndrome. If it's treated properly right now, your boy has years and years ahead of him.

He will need wet food most of the time, but if he will eat dry too, all to the good. And he should become an indoor cat full time, if for no other reason than to protect him from anything else that might creep up on him with his system weakened as it is now.

Show the parent this response if you like. You did nothing wrong, but that vet is a moron. Skeeter was the most pampered, spoiled indoor cat on the planet, who say the vet yearly, and he still developed this tooth problem.

DO NOT let this vet put your cat down. Get a second opinion from someone else first. This is not a terminal disease if taken care of properly.

::hugs::

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This is the kind of useful information I would have liked to have had from a vet.

Googling has given me feline immunodeficiency virus and FeLV as possible viruses which may lead to infections of this kind. FIV is kind of encouraging, really, but it says something that Google is telling me more than the vet did about diseases of cats.

[stillnotbored.livejournal.com]

It wasn't FelV or FIV. It is something specific to teeth and I really wish I could remember what it was. Loose teeth, pain in eating hard food, secondary bacterial infections, drooling a river...sounds exactly the same.

Hah! Google is my friend. ginigitivis-stornatituis Scroll down the page to the link for this on the dental disease page. There are multiple causes for this.

http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/dental.html

Is there a vet school anywhere near college or a nearby town? That would be a great place to get another opinion.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

There is one, count it one, vetinary school in the country, on the other side of the city. Which is still closer than Queens University Belfast, where the only other vet school on the island is located.

There are, I think, maybe 30-40 vets graduated a year. The ones who treat pets rather than large animals can pretty much chose their own location, fees, whatever, because there are so few of them.

I would hate to be looking for a vet for an exotic animal, like say a reptile or a snake.

[etumukutenyak.livejournal.com]

OK, even though I am a veterinarian I cannot diagnose or prescribe treatment without having seen the cat (i.e., I need a valid client-patient-vet relationship).

However, if you ask me whether I think antibiotics and steroids are useful in treating a dental disease, well..it's rather old-fashioned. Gingivitis-stomatitis (not stomatitus) is a collection of diseases, and not a really helpful diagnosis.

Bottom line: see if you can find another veterinarian -- it doesn't have to be one in private practice -- to give you a second opinion. Second, give the antibiotics. Those will help the gum disease. Third, get a veterinarian who cares to do the dental -- that will remove any bad teeth, and give the healing teeth a leg up (so to speak). Then recheck and see if steroids are required.

Steroids are used in cats primarily as anti-inflammatory drugs, as they cannot handle NSAIDs (like APAP) very well; they run into toxicity issues very quickly. They can be given if you think he's got enough pain that he needs some analgesia. Conservative care -- antibiotics, soft food, and a dental treatment -- will go a long way towards making him feel better. Steroids can certainly play a role in helping him out.

If you need help finding a vet, let me know. Some of the Irish vets are listed in our AVMA, and I may be able to dig up someone for you.

Basic nursing care is do-able at home, and if you are dedicated to this cat, there's no reason why he can't live a long and happy life with you. Email me any time if you've got questions.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Okay, thanks. I asked lj because I Know Not medical care for cats, and Herr Doktor Vet was not filling me with the fullness of confidence. What with the whole lack of clarity thing.

I was presuming the antibiotics were to treat a bacterial infection of the gums and the talk of virus was something else altogether, since that was the only conclusion I could come to that made sense, as the boy's gums are definitely inflamed, so if you prescribe antibiotics for that in humans, I figure you probably do for that in cats.

(I was attempting to logic out some kind of diagnosis from five minutes of hemming and hawing and not-exactly-helpful dialogue, you see, and have reached the conclusion that a virus might be underlying cause of the mouth problem, but is not the problem that Unhelpful!Vet was talking about treating. Before forwhy do you talk about antibiotics in the same breath as virus, unless you're trying to confuse people?)

I should probably take him off the hard stuff completely and give him wet food only? Not so much with the aftercare instructions, that vet.

Did I say thank you for these useful informations? Thank you very much.

It's not so much that I'm dedicated to this cat. But you give a cat a home... well, he's my responsibility, isn't he? You don't get to give up on them when they become work. It's not ethical.

[etumukutenyak.livejournal.com]

Amazingly enough there are vets who don't know how to communicate with humans. Every now and then you'll find one. ;-)

From what you describe, he's guessing there is an infection of the gums, and going with the odds, it's likely to be bacterial (the mouth is not a sterile environment). Viruses, as you know, are not treated with antibiotics, so where this comes from is anyone's guess. Perhaps he's thinking of virally-induced situations that lead to increased risk of bacterial infections, but in that case I'd ask you one thing: How many infections has this cat had, in his life with you?

If you haven't seen constant little infections here and there, then it's much less likely that he has any sort of virus supressing his immune system.

Wet stuff alone is fine. The important thing here is nutritional support in some form. Nutrition in = fuel for the body to do its work.

As for responsibility -- you're absolutely right. Sadly enough, there's people in this world who don't understand this. It's good to know that there are people who do. ;-)

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Amazingly enough there are vets who don't know how to communicate with humans. Every now and then you'll find one.

I thought it might be something like that, to be honest, but when people are unclear, how do you tell lack of ability to explain from lack of ability? And I do want the boy to have good care and not to be hurting, if possible.

So I say again, thanks. I really appreciate the information, here. :)

[etumukutenyak.livejournal.com]

You're welcome, and feel free to email me anytime. I do mean that.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Thank you.