hawkwing_lb: (sunset dreamed)
[personal profile] hawkwing_lb
I probably shouldn't think so much, really.

A couple of days ago in college, we were playing 'more-Irish-than-thou'. It's what I call it, anyway, when people start talking about their names and where they think their families came from and how far back they're sure of. It's often fun, and can get fairly ridiculous. (One way or another, my ancestors were the oppressors. My surname is a variant of Burke and my grandfather's people, from whence I have the name, came from Mayo. And my grandmother has English and Scots antecedents.) Sometimes you'll get an O'Brian claiming to go all the way back to Brian Boru, or an O'Connor claiming descent from the kings of Connaught, which family tradition is always fun to hear about. But it got me thinking.

But I was thinking. One day, I should like to write a book that manages to engage with the tensions, or the not exactly a dichotomy, of being Irish and living through the English language; of being inculcated, at an early age, with both admiration of things British, and resentment for Britain and all it stood for.

There is no part of the history of this island that is untainted by the ongoing tensions - the sometimes-violent, always frustrating argument - between nationalism and imperialism. Even as a historical entanglement, the Anglo-Irish relationship has always been complicated. When you look at the feelings, the resonances, the myths at the root of modern Irish identity, it's that much more so.

Plantation, that ugly word. "To hell or to Connaught". Transportation. 1798 and Theobald Wolfe Tone. Edward Fitzgerald. Robert Emmet. Daniel O'Connell and Charles Stuart Parnell. 1916 and James Connolly shot tied to a chair. Patrick Pearse and Joseph Plunkett shot hours after his marriage and Eamonn De Valera and Michael Collins and.

I know the names. Even some of the dates and significances. But as a whole, I know more of English history than of Irish for any period before the modern, and I know it with more certainty.

Cúchulain and the Ulster Cycle and the Táin are retold in English. Deirdre and the sons of Uisnech. Fionn and Oisín and the Fíanna, Diarmuid and Gráinne. I know the names and the stories, almost. Halfway. And I can speak in English, with fluency and drive, of loss and longing and pathos and the always bittersweet triumph in those stories. In so much of Irish history, Irish mythicised history, Irish identity.

I can speak in English, but in Irish I am mute.

I have no ear for it. I have no tongue for it. In my mouth it becomes clunky and without music, full of awkward solecisms and embarrassed pauses.

And there are a great many people who might disagree with me, but I can't help account it a loss. I have fourteen years of schooling in what could have been my native tongue. English is certainly of more practical use in a nation whose best and brightest have so often gone elsewhere, but.

But. (And that is a complicated but.)

I'm not particularly proud of my Irishness. It's part of me, like the smothering unexorcised Catholic demons that still infest the glories of our church and state.* I don't like or admire my country, particularly, or my fellow citizens, or my government, or the mess that is this modern state and all that has led to it.

But.

Behind me, us, is history, like a dam stopped up, all those silent generations. Who, besides scholars and schoolchildren and a handful of gaelgóirs in the Gaeltachts, still reads poetry in Irish? aislings? Histories? Stories in the language in which they were told? Nearly everyone knows Heaney, Kavanagh, Yeats. Who came before them? Aogán Ó Rathaille? Art McCumhaigh? Dáibhí Ó Bruadair?

I don't even know where to look to find editions of their work with accompanying translations for someone as unfluent as I am. And I feel that by my muteness, by my inability, I am helping silence them, and all those voices of the history I don't like to look at too closely, because it hurts.

Because I am here because of them. And this country is here because of them. And there is no way to talk about identity and place and nation and culture without entering into that tangled argument of nationalism and imperialism and violence and accommodation and how we got to be here, today. The things we leave, left, along the way - which include for so many of us a distinct language, if not quite a distinct culture - are they worth reclaiming?

Because I hate the way that the 'green flag', so to speak, has become so much the property of the ugly species of nationalism. And so I am ambivalent, for myself, about participating in an active attempt to reclaim markers of Irishness from the indifference of history. Because markers are what humans use to exclude, and do various other shitty things, and I think nationalism in all its varied forms is a fallacy, and a failure.

But there is that other hand, there, that says I shouldn't be embarrassed to want to participate in Irishness, in the argument about what the myths of this country's identity should be, in the interrupted, weird, strange, human transmission of myths and literature and ideas that goes back to bunches of Iron Age cattle thieves sitting around a hearth telling each other how great they were.

I'm not sure I'm using the right words. I'm not sure I know how to use the right words. All I know is, the more I dislike my nation, the more I feel inclined to roll around in the historical underneath of my country. Which is nearly the same thing as 'nation', but not, quite.

Or, to borrow from Seamus Heaney,

"Bogland"
for T. P. Flanagan

We have no prairies
To slice a big sun at evening--
Everywhere the eye concedes to
Encrouching horizon,

Is wooed into the cyclops' eye
Of a tarn. Our unfenced country
Is bog that keeps crusting
Between the sights of the sun.

They've taken the skeleton
Of the Great Irish Elk
Out of the peat, set it up
An astounding crate full of air.

Butter sunk under
More than a hundred years
Was recovered salty and white.
The ground itself is kind, black butter

Melting and opening underfoot,
Missing its last definition
By millions of years.
They'll never dig coal here,

Only the waterlogged trunks
Of great firs, soft as pulp.
Our pioneers keep striking
Inwards and downwards,

Every layer they strip
Seems camped on before.
The bogholes might be Atlantic seepage.
The wet centre is bottomless.



And the more I learn, the less I know.

...This kind of got a little more personal than I intended. Well, context is everything, I suppose.



*Shadows, not substantial things.

Date: 2009-01-16 12:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cristalia.livejournal.com
I would want to read that book.

Date: 2009-01-16 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
One day I'll write it.

I'll fail it, of course: there's so much there to even try to do justice. But one day I'll write it, nonetheless. :)

Date: 2009-01-16 02:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] matociquala.livejournal.com
I would also wish to read it.

Date: 2009-01-16 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonquil.livejournal.com
This is beautiful. Thank you, and I am sorry for your deprivation.

Date: 2009-01-16 03:18 am (UTC)
ext_1056: (Default)
From: [identity profile] booknerdguru.livejournal.com
Followed a link from [livejournal.com profile] matociquala's journal. This was very enlightening and interesting. I would definitely buy and read that book, probably several times.

This line in particular resonated in me. All I know is, the more I dislike my nation, the more I feel inclined to roll around in the historical underneath of my country.

Date: 2009-01-16 03:35 am (UTC)
beccastareyes: Image of Sam from LotR. Text: loyal (Default)
From: [personal profile] beccastareyes
Wow. That was incredible -- I'm here from [livejournal.com profile] matociquala's journal.

I'm an American with an Irish father, and it just reminds me of a story. When my sister was getting married, Dad decided to recite something in Irish, something traditional from my grandmother's part of the country, as part of his toast at the reception. My father's a chemist, and quite used to speaking in front of others, but he haltingly mumbled through this, apologizing for his pronunciation when maybe five people in the room (himself, his siblings, and my mother's sister's husband, who had been the one to introduce my parents) would even understand one word in ten.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joycemocha.livejournal.com
Count me as another who would so want to read that book.

Assimilation is a bitch.

I don't even know my antecedents for certain...except that one branch goes back to Cornwall, and, well, you know those people.

Lovely. Thank you for giving voice to something I've felt for a long time.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] medievalist.livejournal.com
I'd like to read that book, too.

You wrote:

Who, besides scholars and schoolchildren and a handful of gaelgóirs in the Gaeltachts, still reads poetry in Irish? aislings? Histories? Stories in the language in which they were told? Nearly everyone knows Heaney, Kavanagh, Yeats. Who came before them? Aogán Ó Rathaille? Art McCumhaigh? Dáibhí Ó Bruadair?



I don't even know where to look to find editions of their work with accompanying translations for someone as unfluent as I am. And I feel that by my muteness, by my inability, I am helping silence them, and all those voices of the history I don't like to look at too closely, because it hurts.




I know that this isn't the main point you are making. But.

You can learn enough pre-reform Irish in six to ten weeks to read these poets and tales in the original. You can start reading lightly edited versions of the Táin in three. I'm not being falsely modest in saying that if I can do it, anyone can.

You can look here (http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/oldirish.html) for a start, and I can help you find the books you want.

Date: 2009-01-16 06:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stillnotbored.livejournal.com
This was beautiful, Liz.

And when I read about someone being so passionate about their country and their identity in it, I always feel a pang of loss. While I can trace my family back to the 1700's, it is such a scattered mix there is no coherent identity. I can't say I am 'this'. That's sad or at least makes me sad.

Date: 2009-01-16 12:17 pm (UTC)
ext_12726: (Harlech castle)
From: [identity profile] heleninwales.livejournal.com
It would be a very interesting book.

As a women who was born in England but has lived in Wales for over 30 years, I know just how complex the interplay of language, nationality and cultural identity can be.

(Here via a link from [livejournal.com profile] matociquala by the way.)

Date: 2009-01-16 03:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
I'm not even sure it's deprivation, in a way. I certainly wouldn't trade my fluency in English for fluency in Irish. But why should it be either/or? (There's always a but.)

There are no simple ways to even start thinking about identity, when it has eight hundred years of argument behind it. Maybe it wouldn't be simple even without the eight hundred years of argument. And I've only just started to think about this in more than passing.

Date: 2009-01-16 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Assimilation is a bitch.

Isn't it, though? And the question on my mind throughout is, What are we assimilating to?

The 'British question' has gone away, mostly. But the 'Irish question' hasn't, really. And... there are no answers, really, only more questions.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Thanks. (I didn't set out to make it beautiful. So that it a startlement to me.)

The thing I am thinking is that there is no 'this'. There are degrees of identification and degrees of alienation, and you (I, anyway) can't really disentangle the two. You try to hold on to what you value, but first you have to figure out what you value, exactly, and whether or not you value it for the right reasons and not just from a knee-jerk attachment to continuity, or a romanticisation of the past. Or a knee-jerk rejection of parts thereof.

I do not find it simple. I have an Irish passport. That makes me Irish: there is no other criteria. Figuring out what (small) part I want to have in the conversation about what to be Irish means... that's part of responsible citizenship, but it's also got eight hundred+ years of complicated argument to negotiate.

I'm not Catholic (anymore, and I'm not sure, in fact, if I ever qualified on grounds of actual belief in doctrine or desire to be part of the church). I'm objectively pro-Partition. I think waving the green flag and romanticising the past is the last resort of fools and scoundrels, and Brit-bashing, now or historically, is unproductive. But at the same time, that past is my heritage also, not necessarily by right or by desire, but because I have to live with it.

I know I'm Irish. I'm not sure I know what 'Irish' means.

Which is a long way of saying nothing very much. But I don't think anyone has a coherent identity (as part of a larger group, I mean), really. We share bits and pieces and occasionally handed-down fragments of myth and ways of looking at the world, but in the end everybody has to stitch it together for themselves the bits we want, and the bits we'd like to get rid of but can't. Identity is about compromises, I am starting to think.

...Wow, I waffled long. Sorry.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Thank you. That's useful.

I'm pretty sure I could find these things if I put any effort into looking (I have access to Trinity's library, which is probably the largest in the country). But I'm a classics undergrad, with three or more languages I need to pick up if I mean to do research there later, and I'm sufficiently lazy (and my experience with Irish in school sufficiently unexciting) that my ambivalence has so far inclined me to inaction.

Thanks.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:51 pm (UTC)

Date: 2009-01-16 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Thanks. I didn't set out to be interesting. It baffles me that I actually appear to have been.:)

It's a very strange thing.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
I know just how complex the interplay of language, nationality and cultural identity can be.

It's a very strange thing, that's for sure.

Date: 2009-01-16 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Thanks.

I'm not even sure what I meant by that, today. Still, it made sense at the time. :)

Date: 2009-01-16 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etumukutenyak.livejournal.com
::applauds::

I'd buy the book too.

Date: 2009-01-16 05:13 pm (UTC)
ext_1056: (Default)
From: [identity profile] booknerdguru.livejournal.com
It actually makes perfect sense to me. I've felt exactly that with my birth country sometimes.

Date: 2009-01-16 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
So I guess all I have to do is write it? Write it well?

My track record on that isn't great, so far. :P

(Thanks.)

Date: 2009-01-16 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etumukutenyak.livejournal.com
Pssh! You're already writing it, right here. A few (dozen) more essays and Bob's your uncle. As we say.

I'm quite willing to wait until you've gotten whatever degrees you feel necessary for Success In Life, as that will give you plenty of time to find topics to write on and more practice in writing to deadlines. It's all good.

As for writing well, I've seen examples of your writing, and IMHO, you write well enough. What you need more of is luck, and a good agent.

Date: 2009-01-16 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyvernfriend.livejournal.com
You speak to my soul.

Date: 2009-01-16 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
And to finish something. :P

(Seriously. You flatter me. Not that I'm averse to flattery, mind. :) )

Date: 2009-01-16 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etumukutenyak.livejournal.com
Well, that whole "finishing things" bit does get important*. Details, technical details. I think historians and essayists have a little bit of leeway in declaring an end to things, or at least an ending point. Start where you like, end where you like, and justify it well in between, eh?



*Not nearly as important as "starting things", sometimes.

Date: 2009-01-16 07:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
The devil is in the details, she said, darkly.

:)

Date: 2009-01-16 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Then I'm sorry. It shouldn't have to be quite this tangled. But it is.

Date: 2009-01-16 11:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] killimengri.livejournal.com
I came here from wyvernfriend's LJ entry that mentions it.

I'm Zingari & my childer are 1/2 Welsh. I tried to teach my eldest her Tadiaith, but as a toddler she wasn't having any of it, demanding that I named things in English for her. Now she really regrets turning her back on her father's tongue & took a brief course as part of her medical course at CP Caerdydd. Here's me trying to forget the language of the man who abused us & my daughter who according to her marriage cert. is a bastard (ie refused to name her father for her wedding) is desparate to learn now his language. She is the Welshest of the lot having been made after a Welsh Ball we were playing for in Tregaron & would have been born in Aberystwyth if we hadn't moved the week before her due date to Guernsey! Things are really complicated for her ~ mixed blood, mixed cultures, major culture being from a man who hit her, mentally & emotionally scarred her badly & yet she's back in & at home in that country amongst his countrymen.

Thank you for writing this post. (I live in Ireland now & am actually glad that the Welshness offers some protection from those that hate the English as a matter of course)

Date: 2009-01-17 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etumukutenyak.livejournal.com
You've been reading the Star Trek mashups on Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/), haven't you?

Date: 2009-01-17 03:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] resqdog51.livejournal.com
But its the nature of nationality to be tangled. At least -- for those of us who have countries who have been violently shaped by a conquering people, whether we've won free after or not.

I think its part of being human. The harder we try to find our 'roots' the less 'roots' we find we actually have....and that's how we got here, to begin with. Isn't it?

Date: 2009-01-17 03:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
You're asking me? I don't believe in 'roots'. I haven't the first clue about reconciling the different values placed on different performances of identity, and different mythologies of the past.

Really, the more I learn, the less I know.

(I'd just like to read more books that engage with those problems, so I guess I have to write my own.)

Date: 2009-01-17 03:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
It's complicated, no?

Date: 2009-01-17 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] resqdog51.livejournal.com
*laugh*

There you go, then!

Date: 2009-01-17 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] killimengri.livejournal.com
So very complicated.

I love the icon ~ I wonder if my sister & elder childer would (all are brilliant at maths: sister got a 1st from Oxford on a Scholarship in maths; me? I'm just ordinary (ish) & average, like my youngest)

Date: 2009-01-18 07:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] medievalist.livejournal.com
If you're doing Classics, Latin and Greek make Old Irish dead easy.

And if you're at Trinity, and you're interested, I can tell you who to avoid ;)

Date: 2009-01-18 06:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Ancient history and biblical studies. The ancient history is classics-focused, but has no language component, so I'm - very slowly - teaching myself Latin, and taking koine Greek as part of the biblical studies course. This summer I get to introduce myself to German and brush up on my French, since one can't exactly ignore the other major languages of classical scholarship. :)

(I'm not, precisely, fond of learning languages. So it figures I'd fall in love with a discipline that requires about six. :P)

Knowing who to avoid is always useful. On the other hand, this journal has less and less plausible deniability by the day. ;)

Date: 2009-01-18 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] medievalist.livejournal.com
:D I'm a medievalist, specializing in Celtic languages and literature, and philology.

I'm severely dyslexic. So of course, I'd pick a field that required me to learn two modern languages, and several "dead" ones, including things like Hittite and Sanskrit.

And halfway into a manuscript practicum, I discovered that I am seriously allergic to the specific dust mites that feed on vellum. :D

This is pretty funny, all in all.

But when I say if I can do it, in the context of learning a language, anyone can, I really am serious.

Remember too that learning languages like Koine means learning to read them, not write them. It's waaayyyyyy easier.

Date: 2009-01-18 06:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Okay, wow. That's impressive.

learning languages like Koine means learning to read them, not write them. It's waaayyyyyy easier.

But maybe not as much fun?

There are still a handful of extant undergraduate prizes in Trinity for compositions in the classical languages. I'm not sure if making the attempt is ever worth it for ~40 quid. :)

Date: 2009-01-19 02:59 am (UTC)
keilexandra: Adorable panda with various Chinese overlays. (Default)
From: [personal profile] keilexandra
This isn't an exactly analogous experience, but recently I've made the useful distinction between "native tongue" and "mother tongue." English is my native tongue; Mandarin is my mother tongue. I would not call myself fluent in Mandarin, although I am passably conversant. Yet I was born in China--I'm not Chinese-American in any sense of the word, since I'm Canadian by citizenship and loyalty--and my Chinese-ness is inescapable. Of course, living in the U.S. now, I deal more often with slurs on Canada than on China.

However: I can speak in English, but in Irish I am mute.

This, I empathize with utterly.

Date: 2009-01-19 02:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
It's awkward, in any kind of sense, to talk about any kind of experience like this. Or so I am finding.

Date: 2009-01-20 05:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brightglance.livejournal.com
Came here from a link on someone elses's LJ - I can highly recommend An Duanaire - Poems of the Dispossessed (http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/library/services/book-promos/classics/duanaire.htm) as an excellent poetry anthology where the facing page translation format lets you make the most of whatever vestigial Irish you have.

Date: 2009-01-20 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
My thanks. :)

Date: 2009-01-23 12:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ideealisme.livejournal.com
Got here via various LJ blogs concerning the SF Topic of Doom (Cultural Appropriation)

This is a gem of a post. Thank you; I feel this uneasiness too.

Date: 2009-01-23 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
Oh god. Tell me I did not get mentioned in that brangle. Please?

(Or at least, tell me that the mention was not part of the really, ah, heated debate?)

Anyway, thanks.

Date: 2009-01-24 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ideealisme.livejournal.com
no, not at all! the link was from one of the people who was going to restart the magazine thingy (iirc) but the link was referred to entirely separately from any of that - I certainly didn't see it anywhere else.

Date: 2009-01-24 11:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com
You relieve me enormously.

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