hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-24 04:58 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 41c-42a

[41ξ] ἀλλὰ καὶ ὑμᾶς χρή, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί, εὐέλπιδας εἶναι πρὸς τὸν θάνατον, καὶ ἕν τι τοῦτο διανοεῖσθαι ἀληθές, ὅτι

But you must, O men of the jury, be cheerful with regard to death, and in this thing bear in mind the truth, that

[41δ] οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρὶ ἀγαθῷ κακὸν οὐδὲν οὔτε ζῶντι οὔτε τελευτήσαντι, οὐδὲ ἀμελεῖται ὑπὸ θεῶν τὰ τούτου πράγματα: οὐδὲ τὰ ἐμὰ νῦν ἀπὸ τοῦ αὐτομάτου γέγονεν, ἀλλά μοι δῆλόν ἐστι τοῦτο, ὅτι ἤδη τεθνάναι καὶ ἀπηλλάχθαι πραγμάτων βέλτιον ἦν μοι. διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἐμὲ οὐδαμοῦ ἀπέτρεψεν τὸ σημεῖον, καὶ ἔγωγε τοῖς καταψηφισαμένοις μου καὶ τοῖς κατηγόροις οὐ πάνυ χαλεπαίνω. καίτοι οὐ ταύτῃ τῇ διανοίᾳ κατεψηφίζοντό μου καὶ κατηγόρουν, ἀλλ᾽ οἰόμενοι βλάπτειν:

there is nothing evil for a good man neither while he lives nor after he dies, unless the events of this are allowed by the gods: and my matters now have not happened from their own will, but this is clear to me, that already to die and to be delivered from these events were better for me. And because of this no sign turned me aside, and at least with those who condemn me and with those who accuse me I am not very angry. And yet they did not condemn me and accuse me with this thought, but thinking they would harm me:

[41ε] τοῦτο αὐτοῖς ἄξιον μέμφεσθαι. τοσόνδε μέντοι αὐτῶν δέομαι: τοὺς ὑεῖς μου, ἐπειδὰν ἡβήσωσι, τιμωρήσασθε, ὦ ἄνδρες, ταὐτὰ ταῦτα λυποῦντες ἅπερ ἐγὼ ὑμᾶς ἐλύπουν, ἐὰν ὑμῖν δοκῶσιν ἢ χρημάτων ἢ ἄλλου του πρότερον ἐπιμελεῖσθαι ἢ ἀρετῆς, καὶ ἐὰν δοκῶσί τι εἶναι μηδὲν ὄντες, ὀνειδίζετε αὐτοῖς ὥσπερ ἐγὼ ὑμῖν, ὅτι οὐκ ἐπιμελοῦνται ὧν δεῖ, καὶ οἴονταί τι εἶναι ὄντες οὐδενὸς ἄξιοι. καὶ ἐὰν

with respect to this, [it is] worthy to find fault with them. However, I ask so much of them: when my sons attain their prime, you will revenge yourselves, O men, afflicting them with respect to these things just as I afflicted you, if they seem to you to be concerned with property or anything else before virtue, and if they consider themselves to be something while not being so, reproach them just as I [reproached] you, because they do not care for what it is necessary [to care for], and think themselves to be something while they are worthy of nothing. And if

[42α] ταῦτα ποιῆτε, δίκαια πεπονθὼς ἐγὼ ἔσομαι ὑφ᾽ ὑμῶν αὐτός τε καὶ οἱ ὑεῖς. ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἤδη ὥρα ἀπιέναι, ἐμοὶ μὲν ἀποθανουμένῳ, ὑμῖν δὲ βιωσομένοις: ὁπότεροι δὲ ἡμῶν ἔρχονται ἐπὶ ἄμεινον πρᾶγμα, ἄδηλον παντὶ πλὴν ἢ τῷ θεῷ.

you do these things, I will have myself experience justice from you and my sons also. But already [it is] the hour to depart, me to my dying and you to your lives: which of us goes to the better thing, it's unclear to everyone except to the god.




And I have now badly translated a whole book of Plato. Onwards!
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-22 07:52 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 40c-41c mid

[40ξ] ἐννοήσωμεν δὲ καὶ τῇδε ὡς πολλὴ ἐλπίς ἐστιν ἀγαθὸν αὐτὸ εἶναι. δυοῖν γὰρ θάτερόν ἐστιν τὸ τεθνάναι: ἢ γὰρ οἷον μηδὲν εἶναι μηδὲ αἴσθησιν μηδεμίαν μηδενὸς ἔχειν τὸν τεθνεῶτα, ἢ κατὰ τὰ λεγόμενα μεταβολή τις τυγχάνει οὖσα καὶ μετοίκησις τῇ ψυχῇ τοῦ τόπου τοῦ ἐνθένδε εἰς ἄλλον τόπον. καὶ εἴτε δὴ μηδεμία αἴσθησίς ἐστιν ἀλλ᾽

We should consider also this here how much hope there is for it to be good. For twofold is dying: for either it is a kind of nothing and no one of the ones having died have a perception of anything, or, according to what is said, it happens to be some kind of change for the psyche of this place here into another place. And if it is no-perception but

[40δ] οἷον ὕπνος ἐπειδάν τις καθεύδων μηδ᾽ ὄναρ μηδὲν ὁρᾷ, θαυμάσιον κέρδος ἂν εἴη ὁ θάνατος—ἐγὼ γὰρ ἂν οἶμαι, εἴ τινα ἐκλεξάμενον δέοι ταύτην τὴν νύκτα ἐν ᾗ οὕτω κατέδαρθεν ὥστε μηδὲ ὄναρ ἰδεῖν, καὶ τὰς ἄλλας νύκτας τε καὶ ἡμέρας τὰς τοῦ βίου τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ ἀντιπαραθέντα ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ δέοι σκεψάμενον εἰπεῖν πόσας ἄμεινον καὶ ἥδιον ἡμέρας καὶ νύκτας ταύτης τῆς νυκτὸς βεβίωκεν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ βίῳ, οἶμαι ἂν μὴ ὅτι ἰδιώτην τινά, ἀλλὰ τὸν μέγαν βασιλέα εὐαριθμήτους

a kind of sleep when someone sleeping sees no dream-vision at all, death would be a wonderful gain - for I would think, if someone needed to pick out that night in which thus he slept so that he saw no dream, and comparing and examining this night with respect to the other nights and days of his own life, he would say how many nights and days had passed better and more pleasant than this night in his own life, I don't think a private person, not the Great King

[40ε] ἂν εὑρεῖν αὐτὸν ταύτας πρὸς τὰς ἄλλας ἡμέρας καὶ νύκτας—εἰ οὖν τοιοῦτον ὁ θάνατός ἐστιν, κέρδος ἔγωγε λέγω: καὶ γὰρ οὐδὲν πλείων ὁ πᾶς χρόνος φαίνεται οὕτω δὴ εἶναι ἢ μία νύξ. εἰ δ᾽ αὖ οἷον ἀποδημῆσαί ἐστιν ὁ θάνατος ἐνθένδε εἰς ἄλλον τόπον, καὶ ἀληθῆ ἐστιν τὰ λεγόμενα, ὡς ἄρα ἐκεῖ εἰσι πάντες οἱ τεθνεῶτες, τί μεῖζον ἀγαθὸν τούτου εἴη ἄν, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί; εἰ γάρ τις

would find them easy to count set against the other days and nights - so if death is such a kind of thing, I at least say it is a gain: for with respect to nothing of a great number, all time appears thus to be one night. If death is of such as sort as to go on one's travels from here into another place, and the things said are true, that there are all those who have died, what greater good thing than this would there be, O men of the jury? For if someone

[41α] ἀφικόμενος εἰς Ἅιδου, ἀπαλλαγεὶς τουτωνὶ τῶν φασκόντων δικαστῶν εἶναι, εὑρήσει τοὺς ὡς ἀληθῶς δικαστάς, οἵπερ καὶ λέγονται ἐκεῖ δικάζειν, Μίνως τε καὶ Ῥαδάμανθυς καὶ Αἰακὸς καὶ Τριπτόλεμος καὶ ἄλλοι ὅσοι τῶν ἡμιθέων δίκαιοι ἐγένοντο ἐν τῷ ἑαυτῶν βίῳ, ἆρα φαύλη ἂν εἴη ἡ ἀποδημία; ἢ αὖ Ὀρφεῖ συγγενέσθαι καὶ Μουσαίῳ καὶ Ἡσιόδῳ καὶ Ὁμήρῳ ἐπὶ πόσῳ ἄν τις δέξαιτ᾽ ἂν ὑμῶν; ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ πολλάκις ἐθέλω τεθνάναι εἰ ταῦτ᾽ ἔστιν ἀληθῆ. ἐπεὶ

arrives in Hades, having been set free here from those asserting themselves to judges, he would find as true judges, those who are said to judge there, Minos and Rhadamanthus and Aiakos and Triptolemos and those others of the demigods who were judges in their own life, would the going not be trivial? How much would any one of you accept to meet with Orpheus and Mousaios and Hesiod and Homer? For I want to die many times if this is true. Since

[41β] ἔμοιγε καὶ αὐτῷ θαυμαστὴ ἂν εἴη ἡ διατριβὴ αὐτόθι, ὁπότε ἐντύχοιμι Παλαμήδει καὶ Αἴαντι τῷ Τελαμῶνος καὶ εἴ τις ἄλλος τῶν παλαιῶν διὰ κρίσιν ἄδικον τέθνηκεν, ἀντιπαραβάλλοντι τὰ ἐμαυτοῦ πάθη πρὸς τὰ ἐκείνων—ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι, οὐκ ἂν ἀηδὲς εἴη—καὶ δὴ τὸ μέγιστον, τοὺς ἐκεῖ ἐξετάζοντα καὶ ἐρευνῶντα ὥσπερ τοὺς ἐνταῦθα διάγειν, τίς αὐτῶν σοφός ἐστιν καὶ τίς οἴεται μέν, ἔστιν δ᾽ οὔ. ἐπὶ πόσῳ δ᾽ ἄν τις, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί, δέξαιτο ἐξετάσαι τὸν ἐπὶ Τροίαν ἀγαγόντα

to me myself spending time in that spot would be a wonder, where I may meet with Palamedes and Aias the Telamonian and some other ones of old who died because of wrong judgement, comparing my experiences against theirs - as I think, that would not be disagreeable - and the best thing, examining and cross-examining those there, just as I spend time with respect to those here, with respect to who of them is wise, and who of them thinks himself to be wise, but is not. What would anyone accept, O men of the jury, to examine one who commanded at Troy

[41ξ] τὴν πολλὴν στρατιὰν ἢ Ὀδυσσέα ἢ Σίσυφον ἢ ἄλλους μυρίους ἄν τις εἴποι καὶ ἄνδρας καὶ γυναῖκας, οἷς ἐκεῖ διαλέγεσθαι καὶ συνεῖναι καὶ ἐξετάζειν ἀμήχανον ἂν εἴη εὐδαιμονίας; πάντως οὐ δήπου τούτου γε ἕνεκα οἱ ἐκεῖ ἀποκτείνουσι: τά τε γὰρ ἄλλα εὐδαιμονέστεροί εἰσιν οἱ ἐκεῖ τῶν ἐνθάδε, καὶ ἤδη τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον ἀθάνατοί εἰσιν, εἴπερ γε τὰ λεγόμενα ἀληθῆ.

the great general or Odysseus or Sisyphos or myriad others who I could say, both men and women, with whom there to converse and to engage and to examine well would be immeasurable happiness? In any case, it is clear on account of this there they do not kill: for the others are blessed with a good genius, those there in that place, and already for the remainder of time are deathless, if what is said is true.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-19 04:35 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 39c-40c mid

[39ξ] τὸ δὲ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο ἐπιθυμῶ ὑμῖν χρησμῳδῆσαι, ὦ καταψηφισάμενοί μου: καὶ γάρ εἰμι ἤδη ἐνταῦθα ἐν ᾧ μάλιστα ἄνθρωποι χρησμῳδοῦσιν, ὅταν μέλλωσιν ἀποθανεῖσθαι. φημὶ γάρ, ὦ ἄνδρες οἳ ἐμὲ ἀπεκτόνατε, τιμωρίαν ὑμῖν ἥξειν εὐθὺς μετὰ τὸν ἐμὸν θάνατον πολὺ χαλεπωτέραν νὴ Δία ἢ οἵαν ἐμὲ ἀπεκτόνατε: νῦν γὰρ τοῦτο εἴργασθε οἰόμενοι μὲν ἀπαλλάξεσθαι τοῦ διδόναι ἔλεγχον τοῦ βίου, τὸ δὲ ὑμῖν πολὺ ἐναντίον ἀποβήσεται, ὡς ἐγώ φημι. πλείους ἔσονται ὑμᾶς

And indeed after this I desire to deliver an oracle to you, O my condemners: for I am already at the place in which indeed men deliver oracles, when they are about to die. For I say, O men who have killed me, a vengeance [is] to come to you immediately after my death, much harder, by Zeus, than that which you have killed me: for now you have accomplished this thinking you would be delivered from giving evidence of life, but the result for you will be very much the opposite, as I say.

[39δ] οἱ ἐλέγχοντες, οὓς νῦν ἐγὼ κατεῖχον, ὑμεῖς δὲ οὐκ ᾐσθάνεσθε: καὶ χαλεπώτεροι ἔσονται ὅσῳ νεώτεροί εἰσιν, καὶ ὑμεῖς μᾶλλον ἀγανακτήσετε. εἰ γὰρ οἴεσθε ἀποκτείνοντες ἀνθρώπους ἐπισχήσειν τοῦ ὀνειδίζειν τινὰ ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐκ ὀρθῶς ζῆτε, οὐ καλῶς διανοεῖσθε: οὐ γάρ ἐσθ᾽ αὕτη ἡ ἀπαλλαγὴ οὔτε πάνυ δυνατὴ οὔτε καλή, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκείνη καὶ καλλίστη καὶ ῥᾴστη, μὴ τοὺς ἄλλους κολούειν ἀλλ᾽ ἑαυτὸν παρασκευάζειν ὅπως ἔσται ὡς βέλτιστος. ταῦτα μὲν οὖν ὑμῖν τοῖς καταψηφισαμένοις μαντευσάμενος ἀπαλλάττομαι.

The ones cross-examining you will be more numerous, those now who I restrained, but you did not perceive it: and they will be harder, in as much as they are younger, and you indeed will be vexed. For if you think, killing men, you will keep shut someone who reproaches you for something, that you do not live rightly, you do not think well: for this deliverance is neither especially possible nor good, but that one is both better and easy, not to degrade others, but to make oneself as good as possible. So prophesying these things to you, my condemners, I am released.

[39ε] τοῖς δὲ ἀποψηφισαμένοις ἡδέως ἂν διαλεχθείην ὑπὲρ τοῦ γεγονότος τουτουῒ πράγματος, ἐν ᾧ οἱ ἄρχοντες ἀσχολίαν ἄγουσι καὶ οὔπω ἔρχομαι οἷ ἐλθόντα με δεῖ τεθνάναι. ἀλλά μοι, ὦ ἄνδρες, παραμείνατε τοσοῦτον χρόνον: οὐδὲν γὰρ κωλύει διαμυθολογῆσαι πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἕως ἔξεστιν. ὑμῖν

To those condemning me, I would gladly argue for this thing which has happened, in which the leaders lead without leisure and not yet do I go to where, upon going, it is necessary for me to die. But for me, O men, stand fast for so long a time: for nothing hinders our conversing with each other until it is permitted. For to you

[40α] γὰρ ὡς φίλοις οὖσιν ἐπιδεῖξαι ἐθέλω τὸ νυνί μοι συμβεβηκὸς τί ποτε νοεῖ. ἐμοὶ γάρ, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί—ὑμᾶς γὰρ δικαστὰς καλῶν ὀρθῶς ἂν καλοίην—θαυμάσιόν τι γέγονεν. ἡ γὰρ εἰωθυῖά μοι μαντικὴ ἡ τοῦ δαιμονίου ἐν μὲν τῷ πρόσθεν χρόνῳ παντὶ πάνυ πυκνὴ ἀεὶ ἦν καὶ πάνυ ἐπὶ σμικροῖς ἐναντιουμένη, εἴ τι μέλλοιμι μὴ ὀρθῶς πράξειν. νυνὶ δὲ συμβέβηκέ μοι ἅπερ ὁρᾶτε καὶ αὐτοί, ταυτὶ ἅ γε δὴ οἰηθείη ἄν τις καὶ νομίζεται ἔσχατα κακῶν εἶναι: ἐμοὶ δὲ

who are friends I wanted to show now this happening to me means something at this time. For to me, O men of the jury - for I'd call you jurors of nobility, rightly - some wonder has happened. For the prophetic custom of spirit to me in the previous time was always very close and always on account of small things opposed me, if I intended to do something not right. But now it has agreed with me, just as even you yourselves seen, these things which indeed someone may think and consider to be the utmost of evils: but

[40β] οὔτε ἐξιόντι ἕωθεν οἴκοθεν ἠναντιώθη τὸ τοῦ θεοῦ σημεῖον, οὔτε ἡνίκα ἀνέβαινον ἐνταυθοῖ ἐπὶ τὸ δικαστήριον, οὔτε ἐν τῷ λόγῳ οὐδαμοῦ μέλλοντί τι ἐρεῖν. καίτοι ἐν ἄλλοις λόγοις πολλαχοῦ δή με ἐπέσχε λέγοντα μεταξύ: νῦν δὲ οὐδαμοῦ περὶ ταύτην τὴν πρᾶξιν οὔτ᾽ ἐν ἔργῳ οὐδενὶ οὔτ᾽ ἐν λόγῳ ἠναντίωταί μοι. τί οὖν αἴτιον εἶναι ὑπολαμβάνω; ἐγὼ ὑμῖν ἐρῶ: κινδυνεύει γάρ μοι τὸ συμβεβηκὸς τοῦτο ἀγαθὸν γεγονέναι, καὶ οὐκ ἔσθ᾽ ὅπως ἡμεῖς ὀρθῶς ὑπολαμβάνομεν,

from early in the morning going out from home, the sign of the god did not oppose me, nor at the time when I came up here upon the court, nor in any place in my speech while I was intending to say something. And yet, in other arguments often it kept me shut in the midst of my speeches: but now in no way concerning this transaction nor in any deed or word has it opposed me. So for what reason do I suppose this to be? I will tell you. For this thing which happened to me runs the chance of having happened to be good, and it is not how we rightly suppose,

[40ξ] ὅσοι οἰόμεθα κακὸν εἶναι τὸ τεθνάναι. μέγα μοι τεκμήριον τούτου γέγονεν: οὐ γὰρ ἔσθ᾽ ὅπως οὐκ ἠναντιώθη ἄν μοι τὸ εἰωθὸς σημεῖον, εἰ μή τι ἔμελλον ἐγὼ ἀγαθὸν πράξειν.

so much as we think dying to be evil. To me great evidence of this has happened: for it is in such a way, the customary sign would oppose me, unless I was about to do something good.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-18 05:50 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 38c-39b

[38ξ]

οὐ πολλοῦ γ᾽ ἕνεκα χρόνου, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ὄνομα ἕξετε καὶ αἰτίαν ὑπὸ τῶν βουλομένων τὴν πόλιν λοιδορεῖν ὡς Σωκράτη ἀπεκτόνατε, ἄνδρα σοφόν—φήσουσι γὰρ δὴ σοφὸν εἶναι, εἰ καὶ μή εἰμι, οἱ βουλόμενοι ὑμῖν ὀνειδίζειν— εἰ γοῦν περιεμείνατε ὀλίγον χρόνον, ἀπὸ τοῦ αὐτομάτου ἂν ὑμῖν τοῦτο ἐγένετο: ὁρᾶτε γὰρ δὴ τὴν ἡλικίαν ὅτι πόρρω ἤδη ἐστὶ τοῦ βίου θανάτου δὲ ἐγγύς. λέγω δὲ τοῦτο οὐ

Not for the sake of much time, O Athenian men, you will gain the name and responsibility on behalf of the ones wanting to revile the city that you have killed Socrates, a wise man - for they will say I am wise, even if I'm not, those who want to reproach you - so if indeed you'd waited for a little while, from its own accord this would have happened for you: for you see [I'm] of such an age, how far advanced in life, and [how] near death. And I say this not

[38δ] πρὸς πάντας ὑμᾶς, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τοὺς ἐμοῦ καταψηφισαμένους θάνατον. λέγω δὲ καὶ τόδε πρὸς τοὺς αὐτοὺς τούτους. ἴσως με οἴεσθε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀπορίᾳ λόγων ἑαλωκέναι τοιούτων οἷς ἂν ὑμᾶς ἔπεισα, εἰ ᾤμην δεῖν ἅπαντα ποιεῖν καὶ λέγειν ὥστε ἀποφυγεῖν τὴν δίκην. πολλοῦ γε δεῖ. ἀλλ᾽ ἀπορίᾳ μὲν ἑάλωκα, οὐ μέντοι λόγων, ἀλλὰ τόλμης καὶ ἀναισχυντίας καὶ τοῦ μὴ ἐθέλειν λέγειν πρὸς ὑμᾶς τοιαῦτα οἷ᾽ ἂν ὑμῖν μὲν ἥδιστα ἦν ἀκούειν— θρηνοῦντός τέ μου καὶ ὀδυρομένου καὶ ἄλλα ποιοῦντος καὶ

to all of you, but to those voting down death for me. And I say this also to they themselves. Perhaps you think I, O Athenian men, have been captured in want of such words as those with which I might persuade you, if I had thought it to be necessary to do and to say all so that I [might] flee the penalty. Far from it. But I have been captured in a lack, not however of words, but of daring and of shamelessness and of not wanting to say to you such things as would be pleasant for you to hear - my wailing and lamenting and doing and

[38ε] λέγοντος πολλὰ καὶ ἀνάξια ἐμοῦ, ὡς ἐγώ φημι, οἷα δὴ καὶ εἴθισθε ὑμεῖς τῶν ἄλλων ἀκούειν. ἀλλ᾽ οὔτε τότε ᾠήθην δεῖν ἕνεκα τοῦ κινδύνου πρᾶξαι οὐδὲν ἀνελεύθερον, οὔτε νῦν μοι μεταμέλει οὕτως ἀπολογησαμένῳ, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον αἱροῦμαι ὧδε ἀπολογησάμενος τεθνάναι ἢ ἐκείνως ζῆν. οὔτε γὰρ ἐν δίκῃ οὔτ᾽ ἐν πολέμῳ οὔτ᾽ ἐμὲ οὔτ᾽ ἄλλον οὐδένα δεῖ

saying many things and my unworthiness, as I say, which indeed you've also been accustomed to hear from others. But neither, then, did I think it was necessary on account of danger to do anything servile, nor now do I repent of apologising in this way, but indeed I choose much in preference to die having apologised in this way, than to live [having apologised] in that one. For neither in court nor in war neither I nor any other person need

[39α] τοῦτο μηχανᾶσθαι, ὅπως ἀποφεύξεται πᾶν ποιῶν θάνατον. καὶ γὰρ ἐν ταῖς μάχαις πολλάκις δῆλον γίγνεται ὅτι τό γε ἀποθανεῖν ἄν τις ἐκφύγοι καὶ ὅπλα ἀφεὶς καὶ ἐφ᾽ ἱκετείαν τραπόμενος τῶν διωκόντων: καὶ ἄλλαι μηχαναὶ πολλαί εἰσιν ἐν ἑκάστοις τοῖς κινδύνοις ὥστε διαφεύγειν θάνατον, ἐάν τις τολμᾷ πᾶν ποιεῖν καὶ λέγειν. ἀλλὰ μὴ οὐ τοῦτ᾽ ᾖ χαλεπόν, ὦ ἄνδρες, θάνατον ἐκφυγεῖν, ἀλλὰ πολὺ χαλεπώτερον πονηρίαν:

contrive this, that by doing everything he will escape death. For in battles often it is clear it happens that someone might escape dying even by letting fall his arms and turning supplicate the pursuers: and there are many other contrivances in each danger so that he may escape death, if someone dares to do and to say everything. But it is not this which [is] hard, O men, to escape death, but [it is] much harder [to escape] wickedness:

[39β] θᾶττον γὰρ θανάτου θεῖ. καὶ νῦν ἐγὼ μὲν ἅτε βραδὺς ὢν καὶ πρεσβύτης ὑπὸ τοῦ βραδυτέρου ἑάλων, οἱ δ᾽ ἐμοὶ κατήγοροι ἅτε δεινοὶ καὶ ὀξεῖς ὄντες ὑπὸ τοῦ θάττονος, τῆς κακίας. καὶ νῦν ἐγὼ μὲν ἄπειμι ὑφ᾽ ὑμῶν θανάτου δίκην ὀφλών, οὗτοι δ᾽ ὑπὸ τῆς ἀληθείας ὠφληκότες μοχθηρίαν καὶ ἀδικίαν. καὶ ἐγώ τε τῷ τιμήματι ἐμμένω καὶ οὗτοι. ταῦτα μέν που ἴσως οὕτως καὶ ἔδει σχεῖν, καὶ οἶμαι αὐτὰ μετρίως ἔχειν.

for it runs more swiftly than death. And now I, seeing as I am slow and old, I am captured by the slower, while my accusers seeing as they are clever and keen, by the faster, evil. And now I will go away, by you convicted for a penalty of death, and they by the truth have been convicted of wickedness and wrongdoing. And I will abide with my penalty, and they [with theirs]. Perhaps these things had to be thus, and I think they are fair.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-13 01:22 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 37d mid-38b

[37d]καλὸς οὖν ἄν μοι ὁ βίος εἴη ἐξελθόντι τηλικῷδε ἀνθρώπῳ ἄλλην ἐξ ἄλλης πόλεως ἀμειβομένῳ καὶ ἐξελαυνομένῳ ζῆν. εὖ γὰρ οἶδ᾽ ὅτι ὅποι ἂν ἔλθω, λέγοντος ἐμοῦ ἀκροάσονται οἱ νέοι ὥσπερ ἐνθάδε: κἂν μὲν τούτους ἀπελαύνω, οὗτοί με αὐτοὶ ἐξελῶσι πείθοντες τοὺς πρεσβυτέρους:

So my life would be fine for me going away, a man at my time of life, to live exchanging one for another city and being driven out. For I know well that wherever I might go, the young me will listen to me speaking just like here, and if I drive them away, they themselves, persuading the elders, will drive me out:

[37ε] ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀπελαύνω, οἱ τούτων πατέρες δὲ καὶ οἰκεῖοι δι᾽ αὐτοὺς τούτους.

ἴσως οὖν ἄν τις εἴποι: ‘σιγῶν δὲ καὶ ἡσυχίαν ἄγων, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐχ οἷός τ᾽ ἔσῃ ἡμῖν ἐξελθὼν ζῆν;’ τουτὶ δή ἐστι πάντων χαλεπώτατον πεῖσαί τινας ὑμῶν. ἐάντε γὰρ λέγω ὅτι τῷ θεῷ ἀπειθεῖν τοῦτ᾽ ἐστὶν καὶ διὰ τοῦτ᾽ ἀδύνατον

but if I should not drive them away, their fathers and relatives because of them these things [will do].

So perhaps someone might say: "But keeping silent and leading a quiet [life], O Socrates, are you not able to live, after going away from us?" Indeed this of all things is the hardest to persuade some of you [of]. For if I were to say that this is disobedience to the god and because of this [I am] unable


[38α] ἡσυχίαν ἄγειν, οὐ πείσεσθέ μοι ὡς εἰρωνευομένῳ: ἐάντ᾽ αὖ λέγω ὅτι καὶ τυγχάνει μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν ὂν ἀνθρώπῳ τοῦτο, ἑκάστης ἡμέρας περὶ ἀρετῆς τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων περὶ ὧν ὑμεῖς ἐμοῦ ἀκούετε διαλεγομένου καὶ ἐμαυτὸν καὶ ἄλλους ἐξετάζοντος, ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ, ταῦτα δ᾽ ἔτι ἧττον πείσεσθέ μοι λέγοντι. τὰ δὲ ἔχει μὲν οὕτως, ὡς ἐγώ φημι, ὦ ἄνδρες, πείθειν δὲ οὐ ῥᾴδιον. καὶ ἐγὼ ἅμα οὐκ εἴθισμαι ἐμαυτὸν ἀξιοῦν κακοῦ

to lead a quiet [life], you will not believe me, [thinking that] I am dissembling: if indeed I were to say that this happens to the the greatest good to man, to make arguments each day concerning excellence and the other things concerning which you hear me conversing with myself also and even examining others, but the unexamined life [is] not worth living for a human, and these things still less you will be persuaded by me speaking. But they hold in this way, as I say, O men, but to persuade [you is] not easy. And at the same time, I am not accustomed to consider myself worthy of

[38β] οὐδενός. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἦν μοι χρήματα, ἐτιμησάμην ἂν χρημάτων ὅσα ἔμελλον ἐκτείσειν, οὐδὲν γὰρ ἂν ἐβλάβην: νῦν δὲ οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν, εἰ μὴ ἄρα ὅσον ἂν ἐγὼ δυναίμην ἐκτεῖσαι, τοσούτου βούλεσθέ μοι τιμῆσαι. ἴσως δ᾽ ἂν δυναίμην ἐκτεῖσαι ὑμῖν που μνᾶν ἀργυρίου: τοσούτου οὖν τιμῶμαι.

Πλάτων δὲ ὅδε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ Κρίτων καὶ Κριτόβουλος καὶ Ἀπολλόδωρος κελεύουσί με τριάκοντα μνῶν τιμήσασθαι, αὐτοὶ δ᾽ ἐγγυᾶσθαι: τιμῶμαι οὖν τοσούτου, ἐγγυηταὶ δὲ ὑμῖν ἔσονται τοῦ ἀργυρίου οὗτοι ἀξιόχρεῳ.

anything evil. For if I had money, I would propose money as much as I intended to pay, for that would not harm me: but now it is not so, lest as much as I am able to pay, of this you wish to propose for me. And perhaps I would be able to pay about a mina of silver: so I propose this thing.

Plato here, O Athenian men, and Krito and Kritoboulos and Apollodoros urge me to propose thirty mina, and they to give [it] as pledge: so I propose this, and they will be sureties to you of silver in sufficiency.
hawkwing_lb: (DA2 isabela facepalm)
2012-11-12 09:46 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 37c-37d mid

[37ξ] καὶ τί με δεῖ ζῆν ἐν δεσμωτηρίῳ, δουλεύοντα τῇ ἀεὶ καθισταμένῃ ἀρχῇ, τοῖς ἕνδεκα; ἀλλὰ χρημάτων καὶ δεδέσθαι ἕως ἂν ἐκτείσω; ἀλλὰ ταὐτόν μοί ἐστιν ὅπερ νυνδὴ ἔλεγον: οὐ γὰρ ἔστι μοι χρήματα ὁπόθεν ἐκτείσω. ἀλλὰ δὴ φυγῆς τιμήσωμαι; ἴσως γὰρ ἄν μοι τούτου τιμήσαιτε. πολλὴ μεντἄν με φιλοψυχία ἔχοι, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, εἰ οὕτως ἀλόγιστός εἰμι ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι λογίζεσθαι ὅτι ὑμεῖς μὲν ὄντες πολῖταί μου οὐχ οἷοί τε ἐγένεσθε ἐνεγκεῖν τὰς ἐμὰς

And why is it necessary for me to live in prison, being a slave always to the one being set down in office, to the eleven? But [should I propose a fine] of money and to be put in bonds until I might pay it off? But this to me is just what I said now: for I have not money from which I will pay. But should I propose banishment? For perhaps you will award this as punishment for me. Indeed, I would have great love of life, O Athenian men, if in this way I am so unreasoning as to not be able to reckon that you, who are my fellow-citizens, were become unable to bear

[37δ] διατριβὰς καὶ τοὺς λόγους, ἀλλ᾽ ὑμῖν βαρύτεραι γεγόνασιν καὶ ἐπιφθονώτεραι, ὥστε ζητεῖτε αὐτῶν νυνὶ ἀπαλλαγῆναι: ἄλλοι δὲ ἄρα αὐτὰς οἴσουσι ῥᾳδίως; πολλοῦ γε δεῖ, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι.

my way of life and my words, but to you they had become so grievous and so hateful, so that you seek now to be delivered from them: while others bear them easily? It is necessary for much, O Athenian men.




Terrible translation is terrible. And my head hurts. And I'm hungry and nauseous all at once.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-11 04:30 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 35e-37b

[35ε]

τὸ μὲν μὴ ἀγανακτεῖν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἐπὶ τούτῳ

One should not be irritated, O Athenian men, on account of this

[36α] τῷ γεγονότι, ὅτι μου κατεψηφίσασθε, ἄλλα τέ μοι πολλὰ συμβάλλεται, καὶ οὐκ ἀνέλπιστόν μοι γέγονεν τὸ γεγονὸς τοῦτο, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον θαυμάζω ἑκατέρων τῶν ψήφων τὸν γεγονότα ἀριθμόν. οὐ γὰρ ᾠόμην ἔγωγε οὕτω παρ᾽ ὀλίγον ἔσεσθαι ἀλλὰ παρὰ πολύ: νῦν δέ, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἰ τριάκοντα μόναι μετέπεσον τῶν ψήφων, ἀπεπεφεύγη ἄν. Μέλητον μὲν οὖν, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκῶ, καὶ νῦν ἀποπέφευγα, καὶ οὐ μόνον ἀποπέφευγα, ἀλλὰ παντὶ δῆλον τοῦτό γε, ὅτι εἰ μὴ ἀνέβη Ἄνυτος καὶ Λύκων κατηγορήσοντες ἐμοῦ, κἂν ὦφλε

occurrence, that you voted to condemn me, but for me many things come together, and not unexpected by me this happening has happened, but indeed I marvel greatly at the number of votes for each. For I did not imagine in this way so few for it to be but a great many: and now, as it seems, if only thirty of the votes had fallen differently, I would be safe away. Therefore with respect to Meletos, as I think, even now I've got away free, and not only have I got away, but to all people this is clear, that if Anytos and Lykon did not come up accusing me, he'd even be liable to pay a fine

[36β] χιλίας δραχμάς, οὐ μεταλαβὼν τὸ πέμπτον μέρος τῶν ψήφων.

τιμᾶται δ᾽ οὖν μοι ὁ ἀνὴρ θανάτου. εἶεν: ἐγὼ δὲ δὴ τίνος ὑμῖν ἀντιτιμήσομαι, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι; ἢ δῆλον ὅτι τῆς ἀξίας; τί οὖν; τί ἄξιός εἰμι παθεῖν ἢ ἀποτεῖσαι, ὅτι μαθὼν ἐν τῷ βίῳ οὐχ ἡσυχίαν ἦγον, ἀλλ᾽ ἀμελήσας ὧνπερ οἱ πολλοί, χρηματισμοῦ τε καὶ οἰκονομίας καὶ στρατηγιῶν καὶ δημηγοριῶν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀρχῶν καὶ συνωμοσιῶν καὶ στάσεων τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει γιγνομένων, ἡγησάμενος ἐμαυτὸν

of a thousand drachma, not having the fifth share of the votes.

And therefore the man proposes for me the punishment of death. May it be so: I, indeed, can fix what as a counter-estimate for you, O Athenian men? Is it clear that it's my due? What am I worthy to suffer or to pay back, that because of learning in life, I did not pass quietly, but not caring about that which the many [care about], money and property and generalship and public speech and the other offices and conspiracies and factions which come to exist in the city, supposing myself

[36ξ] τῷ ὄντι ἐπιεικέστερον εἶναι ἢ ὥστε εἰς ταῦτ᾽ ἰόντα σῴζεσθαι, ἐνταῦθα μὲν οὐκ ᾖα οἷ ἐλθὼν μήτε ὑμῖν μήτε ἐμαυτῷ ἔμελλον μηδὲν ὄφελος εἶναι, ἐπὶ δὲ τὸ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον ἰὼν εὐεργετεῖν τὴν μεγίστην εὐεργεσίαν, ὡς ἐγώ φημι, ἐνταῦθα ᾖα, ἐπιχειρῶν ἕκαστον ὑμῶν πείθειν μὴ πρότερον μήτε τῶν ἑαυτοῦ μηδενὸς ἐπιμελεῖσθαι πρὶν ἑαυτοῦ ἐπιμεληθείη ὅπως ὡς βέλτιστος καὶ φρονιμώτατος ἔσοιτο, μήτε τῶν τῆς πόλεως, πρὶν αὐτῆς τῆς πόλεως, τῶν τε ἄλλων οὕτω κατὰ τὸν

to be in reality more gentle than to preserve myself, coming into these things, and from there I did not go, going, to the thing is which neither to you nor to myself I was destined to be of any use, but going to each in private, to perform the best good services, as I say, from there I went, putting my hand to persuade each of you not to care for any one of his own things before he would care for himself in such manner as he should be best in himself and in his mind, nor [to care for] the things of the city, before the city itself, and for other things thus following/after

[36δ] αὐτὸν τρόπον ἐπιμελεῖσθαι—τί οὖν εἰμι ἄξιος παθεῖν τοιοῦτος ὤν; ἀγαθόν τι, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, εἰ δεῖ γε κατὰ τὴν ἀξίαν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ τιμᾶσθαι: καὶ ταῦτά γε ἀγαθὸν τοιοῦτον ὅτι ἂν πρέποι ἐμοί. τί οὖν πρέπει ἀνδρὶ πένητι εὐεργέτῃ δεομένῳ ἄγειν σχολὴν ἐπὶ τῇ ὑμετέρᾳ παρακελεύσει; οὐκ ἔσθ᾽ ὅτι μᾶλλον, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πρέπει οὕτως ὡς τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄνδρα ἐν πρυτανείῳ σιτεῖσθαι, πολύ γε μᾶλλον ἢ εἴ τις ὑμῶν ἵππῳ ἢ συνωρίδι ἢ ζεύγει νενίκηκεν Ὀλυμπίασιν: ὁ μὲν γὰρ ὑμᾶς ποιεῖ εὐδαίμονας δοκεῖν εἶναι, ἐγὼ δὲ

to care in the same way - so what am I worthy to suffer, since I'm of such kind? Something good, O Athenian men, if indeed it's necessary according to my desserts in truth to propose a punishment: and these things [ought to be] good of such kind that would be fitting for me. So what is fitting for a poor man who does good needing to bring leisure to exhort on your account? Would it not be that indeed, O Athenian men, it is fitting thus that a man of such kind should eat in the prytany, more [fitting] indded than if one of you in the horse or in the two-horse or in the yoke has had victory at Olympia: for he makes you to seem to be fortunate, while I

[36ε] εἶναι, καὶ ὁ μὲν τροφῆς οὐδὲν δεῖται, ἐγὼ δὲ δέομαι. εἰ οὖν δεῖ με κατὰ τὸ δίκαιον τῆς ἀξίας τιμᾶσθαι, τούτου

[make you fortunate] in fact, and he does not lack any nourishment, while I lack it. If therefore it is necessary for me according to the law to propose a worthy punishment,

[37α] τιμῶμαι, ἐν πρυτανείῳ σιτήσεως.

ἴσως οὖν ὑμῖν καὶ ταυτὶ λέγων παραπλησίως δοκῶ λέγειν ὥσπερ περὶ τοῦ οἴκτου καὶ τῆς ἀντιβολήσεως, ἀπαυθαδιζόμενος: τὸ δὲ οὐκ ἔστιν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοιοῦτον ἀλλὰ τοιόνδε μᾶλλον. πέπεισμαι ἐγὼ ἑκὼν εἶναι μηδένα ἀδικεῖν ἀνθρώπων, ἀλλὰ ὑμᾶς τοῦτο οὐ πείθω: ὀλίγον γὰρ χρόνον ἀλλήλοις διειλέγμεθα. ἐπεί, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, εἰ ἦν ὑμῖν νόμος, ὥσπερ καὶ ἄλλοις ἀνθρώποις, περὶ θανάτου μὴ μίαν ἡμέραν

I propose this, public maintenance in the prytany.

Therefore perhaps to you even by saying suchlike these things I seem to speak just like concerning pity and entreaty, speaking boldly: this is not, O Athenian men, of such a kind but indeed a different kind. I have been persuaded willingly to have done wrong to no man, but I did not persuade you with regard to this: for we reckoned with each other for a little time. Since, as I believe, if you had a law, like some other men have, concerning death not in one day

[37β] μόνον κρίνειν ἀλλὰ πολλάς, ἐπείσθητε ἄν: νῦν δ᾽ οὐ ῥᾴδιον ἐν χρόνῳ ὀλίγῳ μεγάλας διαβολὰς ἀπολύεσθαι. πεπεισμένος δὴ ἐγὼ μηδένα ἀδικεῖν πολλοῦ δέω ἐμαυτόν γε ἀδικήσειν καὶ κατ᾽ ἐμαυτοῦ ἐρεῖν αὐτὸς ὡς ἄξιός εἰμί του κακοῦ καὶ τιμήσεσθαι τοιούτου τινὸς ἐμαυτῷ. τί δείσας; ἦ μὴ πάθω τοῦτο οὗ Μέλητός μοι τιμᾶται, ὅ φημι οὐκ εἰδέναι οὔτ᾽ εἰ ἀγαθὸν οὔτ᾽ εἰ κακόν ἐστιν; ἀντὶ τούτου δὴ ἕλωμαι ὧν εὖ οἶδά τι κακῶν ὄντων τούτου τιμησάμενος; πότερον δεσμοῦ;

only to judge, but several, you would be persuaded: but now it is not easy in a short time to dispel great slander. And I being convinced I did wrong to no one, I lack much indeed to intend to wrong myself and against myself say myself that I am worthy of something bad and propose some judgement of this kind for myself. Fearing what [should I]? Lest I suffer that which Meletos propose for me, which I say that I don't know whether it may be good or evil? Over against this should I choose that which I know well is something bad, intending to propose this? Or propose imprisonment?
hawkwing_lb: (Bear CM weep for the entire world)
2012-11-05 03:03 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 35b-35d

35b]χωρὶς δὲ τῆς δόξης, ὦ ἄνδρες, οὐδὲ δίκαιόν μοι δοκεῖ

Apart from this expectation, O men, it does not seem to me observant of custom

[35ξ] εἶναι δεῖσθαι τοῦ δικαστοῦ οὐδὲ δεόμενον ἀποφεύγειν, ἀλλὰ διδάσκειν καὶ πείθειν. οὐ γὰρ ἐπὶ τούτῳ κάθηται ὁ δικαστής, ἐπὶ τῷ καταχαρίζεσθαι τὰ δίκαια, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ τῷ κρίνειν ταῦτα: καὶ ὀμώμοκεν οὐ χαριεῖσθαι οἷς ἂν δοκῇ αὐτῷ, ἀλλὰ δικάσειν κατὰ τοὺς νόμους. οὔκουν χρὴ οὔτε ἡμᾶς ἐθίζειν ὑμᾶς ἐπιορκεῖν οὔθ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐθίζεσθαι: οὐδέτεροι γὰρ ἂν ἡμῶν εὐσεβοῖεν. μὴ οὖν ἀξιοῦτέ με, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοιαῦτα δεῖν πρὸς ὑμᾶς πράττειν ἃ μήτε ἡγοῦμαι καλὰ εἶναι μήτε

to be compelled by a dikast or being compelled, to flee, but to teach and to persuade. For the dikast is not seated for this, for to show favour to the just things, but for to judge them: and he has sworn not to show favour to those which it seems good to him, but to judge according to the law. Therefore it's necessary for us not to accustom you to swear falsely, nor for you to become accustomed: for neither of us would act piously. So don't expect me, O Athenian men, to be required with regard to such things before you, to practice what I neither believe to be good nor

[35δ] δίκαια μήτε ὅσια, ἄλλως τε μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως καὶ ἀσεβείας φεύγοντα ὑπὸ Μελήτου τουτουΐ. σαφῶς γὰρ ἄν, εἰ πείθοιμι ὑμᾶς καὶ τῷ δεῖσθαι βιαζοίμην ὀμωμοκότας, θεοὺς ἂν διδάσκοιμι μὴ ἡγεῖσθαι ὑμᾶς εἶναι, καὶ ἀτεχνῶς ἀπολογούμενος κατηγοροίην ἂν ἐμαυτοῦ ὡς θεοὺς οὐ νομίζω. ἀλλὰ πολλοῦ δεῖ οὕτως ἔχειν: νομίζω τε γάρ, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ὡς οὐδεὶς τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, καὶ ὑμῖν ἐπιτρέπω καὶ τῷ θεῷ κρῖναι περὶ ἐμοῦ ὅπῃ μέλλει ἐμοί τε ἄριστα εἶναι καὶ ὑμῖν.

just nor holy, especially indeed by Zeus entirely even fleeing impiety by Meletos here. For clearly, if I were to obey you and by begging I were to constrain ones who'd sworn by oath, I would teach you not to believe the gods to exist, and unskilledly defending myself, I would accuse myself of not thinking of the gods. But it is necessary that I hold much in this way: for I think, O Athenian men, that no one of my accusers [can say so], and I turn to you and to the gods to judge concerning me how it is about to be best for me and for you.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-04 06:31 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 35a 35b mid

[35α] εἰ οὖν ὑμῶν οἱ δοκοῦντες διαφέρειν εἴτε σοφίᾳ εἴτε ἀνδρείᾳ εἴτε ἄλλῃ ᾑτινιοῦν ἀρετῇ τοιοῦτοι ἔσονται, αἰσχρὸν ἂν εἴη: οἵουσπερ ἐγὼ πολλάκις ἑώρακά τινας ὅταν κρίνωνται, δοκοῦντας μέν τι εἶναι, θαυμάσια δὲ ἐργαζομένους, ὡς δεινόν τι οἰομένους πείσεσθαι εἰ ἀποθανοῦνται, ὥσπερ ἀθανάτων ἐσομένων ἂν ὑμεῖς αὐτοὺς μὴ ἀποκτείνητε: οἳ ἐμοὶ δοκοῦσιν αἰσχύνην τῇ πόλει περιάπτειν, ὥστ᾽ ἄν τινα καὶ τῶν ξένων

So if the ones of you seeming to be superior either in wisdom or in manliness or in any other excellence which [is] of this kind, were to be [like this], it would be shameful: such as if I had often seen certain ones, whenever they were being judged, while they seemed to be something [worthy], working strange things, as if they believed they would suffer something terrible if there were to die, as though they would be immortal if you did not kill them: they seem to me to attach shame to the city, so that also one of the foreigners might

[35β] ὑπολαβεῖν ὅτι οἱ διαφέροντες Ἀθηναίων εἰς ἀρετήν, οὓς αὐτοὶ ἑαυτῶν ἔν τε ταῖς ἀρχαῖς καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις τιμαῖς προκρίνουσιν, οὗτοι γυναικῶν οὐδὲν διαφέρουσιν. ταῦτα γάρ, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, οὔτε ὑμᾶς χρὴ ποιεῖν τοὺς δοκοῦντας καὶ ὁπῃοῦν τι εἶναι, οὔτ᾽, ἂν ἡμεῖς ποιῶμεν, ὑμᾶς ἐπιτρέπειν, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἐνδείκνυσθαι, ὅτι πολὺ μᾶλλον καταψηφιεῖσθε τοῦ τὰ ἐλεινὰ ταῦτα δράματα εἰσάγοντος καὶ καταγέλαστον τὴν πόλιν ποιοῦντος ἢ τοῦ ἡσυχίαν ἄγοντος.

suppose that the superior ones among the Athenians, in excellence, who they themselves in the offices and the other honours prefer before others, they are not any superior to women. For with respect to these things, O Athenian men, it is necessary for you neither to make/do the ones seeming [good], and by which to be something, neither, if we do, to refer to you, but to demonstrate this itself, that more indeed you would vote down the one who brings these pitiable acts and who makes the city mockable than the one who comes in silence.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-03 08:24 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 34d-35a start

[34δ] εἰ δή τις ὑμῶν οὕτως ἔχει—οὐκ ἀξιῶ μὲν γὰρ ἔγωγε, εἰ δ᾽ οὖν—ἐπιεικῆ ἄν μοι δοκῶ πρὸς τοῦτον λέγειν λέγων ὅτι ‘ἐμοί, ὦ ἄριστε, εἰσὶν μέν πού τινες καὶ οἰκεῖοι: καὶ γὰρ τοῦτο αὐτὸ τὸ τοῦ Ὁμήρου, οὐδ᾽ ἐγὼ ‘ἀπὸ δρυὸς οὐδ᾽ ἀπὸ πέτρης’ πέφυκα ἀλλ᾽ ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, ὥστε καὶ οἰκεῖοί μοί εἰσι καὶ ὑεῖς γε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τρεῖς, εἷς μὲν μειράκιον ἤδη, δύο δὲ παιδία: ἀλλ᾽ ὅμως οὐδένα αὐτῶν δεῦρο ἀναβιβασάμενος δεήσομαι ὑμῶν ἀποψηφίσασθαι.’ τί δὴ οὖν οὐδὲν τούτων ποιήσω; οὐκ αὐθαδιζόμενος, ὦ ἄνδρες

If indeed someone of you holds thusly - I at least do not deem it so, but if, therefore - it seems to me fitting if I were to speak to him, saying that, "O excellent man, I indeed also have some kinfolk: for this is the same thing as the thing of Homer, I'm not either "from a tree nor from a stone," but I was begot from men, so that I also have kinfolk and sons too, O Athenian men; three sons, one a stripling already, and two children yet: but however I won't bring up any one of them here, while I will be begging you to release me." So why will I not do any of these things? Not through being stubborn, O men

[34ε] Ἀθηναῖοι, οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἀτιμάζων, ἀλλ᾽ εἰ μὲν θαρραλέως ἐγὼ ἔχω πρὸς θάνατον ἢ μή, ἄλλος λόγος, πρὸς δ᾽ οὖν δόξαν καὶ ἐμοὶ καὶ ὑμῖν καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει οὔ μοι δοκεῖ καλὸν εἶναι ἐμὲ τούτων οὐδὲν ποιεῖν καὶ τηλικόνδε ὄντα καὶ τοῦτο τοὔνομα ἔχοντα, εἴτ᾽ οὖν ἀληθὲς εἴτ᾽ οὖν ψεῦδος, ἀλλ᾽ οὖν δεδογμένον

of Athens, nor through being disrespectful of you, but whether I have good courage for death or not, another reason, or towards therefore to seem to me and to you and to the whole city, it does not seem to me to be good for me to do any of this things and, since I'm of such an age and since I have such a name as this, whether either truth or untruth, but the opinion has been held that

[35α] γέ ἐστί τῳ Σωκράτη διαφέρειν τῶν πολλῶν ἀνθρώπων.

it is Socrates who surpasses many men.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-02 06:18 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 33c end - 34d start

εἰ γὰρ δὴ ἔγωγε τῶν νέων [33δ] τοὺς μὲν διαφθείρω τοὺς δὲ διέφθαρκα, χρῆν δήπου, εἴτε τινὲς αὐτῶν πρεσβύτεροι γενόμενοι ἔγνωσαν ὅτι νέοις οὖσιν αὐτοῖς ἐγὼ κακὸν πώποτέ τι συνεβούλευσα, νυνὶ αὐτοὺς ἀναβαίνοντας ἐμοῦ κατηγορεῖν καὶ τιμωρεῖσθαι: εἰ δὲ μὴ αὐτοὶ ἤθελον, τῶν οἰκείων τινὰς τῶν ἐκείνων, πατέρας καὶ ἀδελφοὺς καὶ ἄλλους τοὺς προσήκοντας, εἴπερ ὑπ᾽ ἐμοῦ τι κακὸν ἐπεπόνθεσαν αὐτῶν οἱ οἰκεῖοι, νῦν μεμνῆσθαι καὶ τιμωρεῖσθαι. πάντως δὲ πάρεισιν αὐτῶν πολλοὶ ἐνταυθοῖ οὓς ἐγὼ ὁρῶ, πρῶτον μὲν Κρίτων οὑτοσί, ἐμὸς ἡλικιώτης

For if I for my part am destroying the young men, while I have destroyed others, it is necessary perhaps, if some of them who have become old men know that I ever advised them ill while they were young, now they, coming forwards, [should] accuse me and exact vengeance: and if they would not themselves come, somebody from their households, fathers or brothers or others who are present [should come], if ever by me their kinfolk have suffered something bad, now they should remember and exact vengeance. At all events, many of them are here present who I see, first this here Kritos, my age-mate

[33ε] καὶ δημότης, Κριτοβούλου τοῦδε πατήρ, ἔπειτα Λυσανίας ὁ Σφήττιος, Αἰσχίνου τοῦδε πατήρ, ἔτι δ᾽ Ἀντιφῶν ὁ Κηφισιεὺς οὑτοσί, Ἐπιγένους πατήρ, ἄλλοι τοίνυν οὗτοι ὧν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ διατριβῇ γεγόνασιν, Νικόστρατος Θεοζοτίδου, ἀδελφὸς Θεοδότου—καὶ ὁ μὲν Θεόδοτος τετελεύτηκεν, ὥστε οὐκ ἂν ἐκεῖνός γε αὐτοῦ καταδεηθείη—καὶ Παράλιος ὅδε, ὁ Δημοδόκου, οὗ ἦν Θεάγης ἀδελφός: ὅδε δὲ

and my fellow-demesman, the father of Kritoboulos here, then Lysanias the Sphettian, the father of Aischinos here, and still Antiphon the Kephissian here, father of Epigenos, and these others here whose brothers were in this pasttime, Nikostratos son of Theozotidos, brother of Theodotos - and now Theodotos has met his end, so that he himself could not entreat him - and Paralios here, the son of Demodokos, who was the brother of Theagis: and this

[34α] Ἀδείμαντος, ὁ Ἀρίστωνος, οὗ ἀδελφὸς οὑτοσὶ Πλάτων, καὶ Αἰαντόδωρος, οὗ Ἀπολλόδωρος ὅδε ἀδελφός. καὶ ἄλλους πολλοὺς ἐγὼ ἔχω ὑμῖν εἰπεῖν, ὧν τινα ἐχρῆν μάλιστα μὲν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ λόγῳ παρασχέσθαι Μέλητον μάρτυρα: εἰ δὲ τότε ἐπελάθετο, νῦν παρασχέσθω—ἐγὼ παραχωρῶ—καὶ λεγέτω εἴ τι ἔχει τοιοῦτον. ἀλλὰ τούτου πᾶν τοὐναντίον εὑρήσετε, ὦ ἄνδρες, πάντας ἐμοὶ βοηθεῖν ἑτοίμους τῷ διαφθείροντι, τῷ κακὰ ἐργαζομένῳ τοὺς οἰκείους αὐτῶν, ὥς φασι Μέλητος καὶ

Adeimantos, the son of Ariston, who was brother to Plato here, and Aiantodoros, who was brother to Apollodoros here. And I have many others to tell you [about], a certain one of whom it was indeed necessary in his own argument for Meletos to present as witness: and if at that time it escaped his notice, now let him present one - I will step aside - and let him say if he has anyone of this kind. But you will find instead the very opposite of this, O men, and that they all are ready to give aid to the one who destroys, who does evil to their households, as Meletos says, and

[34β] Ἄνυτος. αὐτοὶ μὲν γὰρ οἱ διεφθαρμένοι τάχ᾽ ἂν λόγον ἔχοιεν βοηθοῦντες: οἱ δὲ ἀδιάφθαρτοι, πρεσβύτεροι ἤδη ἄνδρες, οἱ τούτων προσήκοντες, τίνα ἄλλον ἔχουσι λόγον βοηθοῦντες ἐμοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ τὸν ὀρθόν τε καὶ δίκαιον, ὅτι συνίσασι Μελήτῳ μὲν ψευδομένῳ, ἐμοὶ δὲ ἀληθεύοντι;

εἶεν δή, ὦ ἄνδρες: ἃ μὲν ἐγὼ ἔχοιμ᾽ ἂν ἀπολογεῖσθαι, σχεδόν ἐστι ταῦτα καὶ ἄλλα ἴσως τοιαῦτα. τάχα δ᾽ ἄν τις

Anytos too. For the ones who are themselves ruined probably would have reason to be helping me: but the ones unruined, who are already old men, the ones belonging to them, what other reason do they have [to be] helping me but uprightness and justice, because they know that Meletos lies, while I speak truth?

Well then, O men: that which I may have to apologise for, it's hardly these things, but perhaps it is these kind of things. And maybe someone

[34ξ] ὑμῶν ἀγανακτήσειεν ἀναμνησθεὶς ἑαυτοῦ, εἰ ὁ μὲν καὶ ἐλάττω τουτουῒ τοῦ ἀγῶνος ἀγῶνα ἀγωνιζόμενος ἐδεήθη τε καὶ ἱκέτευσε τοὺς δικαστὰς μετὰ πολλῶν δακρύων, παιδία τε αὑτοῦ ἀναβιβασάμενος ἵνα ὅτι μάλιστα ἐλεηθείη, καὶ ἄλλους τῶν οἰκείων καὶ φίλων πολλούς, ἐγὼ δὲ οὐδὲν ἄρα τούτων ποιήσω, καὶ ταῦτα κινδυνεύων, ὡς ἂν δόξαιμι, τὸν ἔσχατον κίνδυνον. τάχ᾽ ἂν οὖν τις ταῦτα ἐννοήσας αὐθαδέστερον ἂν πρός με σχοίη καὶ ὀργισθεὶς αὐτοῖς τούτοις θεῖτο ἂν μετ᾽

of you may experience violent irritation recalling his own self, if he contending in regard also to a lesser case than this case, he had entreated and supplicated the jurors with many tears, having brought up his children in order that especially he might be let go free, and others of his households and many friends, while I will do none of these things, although running these risks, as it would appear to me, [I am in] the final danger. So perhaps someone, considering these things who may be more remorseless towards me and having been made angry by these things, he may place

[34δ] ὀργῆς τὴν ψῆφον.

the vote with anger.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-11-01 01:37 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 32e - 33c

[32ε] ἆρ᾽ οὖν ἄν με οἴεσθε τοσάδε ἔτη διαγενέσθαι εἰ ἔπραττον τὰ δημόσια, καὶ πράττων ἀξίως ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ ἐβοήθουν τοῖς δικαίοις καὶ ὥσπερ χρὴ τοῦτο περὶ πλείστου ἐποιούμην; πολλοῦ γε δεῖ, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι: οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν ἄλλος

So, therefore, do you think I might have survived so much, if I practised public affairs, and by practising worthily as a good man, I aided with just things, and just as if it was necessary I should do this concerning the many? Indeed it's much otherwise, O Athenian men: for neither would

[33α] ἀνθρώπων οὐδείς. ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ διὰ παντὸς τοῦ βίου δημοσίᾳ τε εἴ πού τι ἔπραξα τοιοῦτος φανοῦμαι, καὶ ἰδίᾳ ὁ αὐτὸς οὗτος, οὐδενὶ πώποτε συγχωρήσας οὐδὲν παρὰ τὸ δίκαιον οὔτε ἄλλῳ οὔτε τούτων οὐδενὶ οὓς δὴ διαβάλλοντες ἐμέ φασιν ἐμοὺς μαθητὰς εἶναι. ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκαλος μὲν οὐδενὸς πώποτ᾽ ἐγενόμην: εἰ δέ τίς μου λέγοντος καὶ τὰ ἐμαυτοῦ πράττοντος ἐπιθυμοῖ ἀκούειν, εἴτε νεώτερος εἴτε πρεσβύτερος, οὐδενὶ πώποτε ἐφθόνησα, οὐδὲ χρήματα μὲν λαμβάνων διαλέγομαι

any other man. But I [was] through all my life, in public if I ever did anything of this kind - I will make it clear - and in private the same man, never yielding to anyone with respect to anything contrary to justice, not to another nor to anyone of those who are slandering me say are my students. And I never became anyone's teacher: if anyone longed to hear me speaking and practising my own matters, either young or old, I never begrudged anyone, nor do I argue while receiving money

[33β] μὴ λαμβάνων δὲ οὔ, ἀλλ᾽ ὁμοίως καὶ πλουσίῳ καὶ πένητι παρέχω ἐμαυτὸν ἐρωτᾶν, καὶ ἐάν τις βούληται ἀποκρινόμενος ἀκούειν ὧν ἂν λέγω. καὶ τούτων ἐγὼ εἴτε τις χρηστὸς γίγνεται εἴτε μή, οὐκ ἂν δικαίως τὴν αἰτίαν ὑπέχοιμι, ὧν μήτε ὑπεσχόμην μηδενὶ μηδὲν πώποτε μάθημα μήτε ἐδίδαξα: εἰ δέ τίς φησι παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ πώποτέ τι μαθεῖν ἢ ἀκοῦσαι ἰδίᾳ ὅτι μὴ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πάντες, εὖ ἴστε ὅτι οὐκ ἀληθῆ λέγει.

ἀλλὰ διὰ τί δή ποτε μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ χαίρουσί τινες πολὺν

and not receiving money not [argue], but similarly both to the rich and to the poor I present myself for questioning, and whoever wants answering to hear what I may say. And of these if someone becomes good, or not, I may not justly furnish the cause, for which I never promised to anyone any lessons or that I would teach them: and if someone says that he ever learned something from me or heard something in private that all the others didn't too, you know well that he does not speak the truth.

But why at any time do some people rejoice

[33ξ] χρόνον διατρίβοντες; ἀκηκόατε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πᾶσαν ὑμῖν τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἐγὼ εἶπον: ὅτι ἀκούοντες χαίρουσιν ἐξεταζομένοις τοῖς οἰομένοις μὲν εἶναι σοφοῖς, οὖσι δ᾽ οὔ. ἔστι γὰρ οὐκ ἀηδές. ἐμοὶ δὲ τοῦτο, ὡς ἐγώ φημι, προστέτακται ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ πράττειν καὶ ἐκ μαντείων καὶ ἐξ ἐνυπνίων καὶ παντὶ τρόπῳ ᾧπέρ τίς ποτε καὶ ἄλλη θεία μοῖρα ἀνθρώπῳ καὶ ὁτιοῦν προσέταξε πράττειν. ταῦτα, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ ἀληθῆ ἐστιν καὶ εὐέλεγκτα.

at spending a lot of time with me? You have heard, O Athenian men, to you I spoke all the truth: that, hearing, they rejoiced in examining the ones who think themselves to wise, while not being so. For it is not without pleasure. But this for me, as I say, it was commanded by the god that I should do this both from prophecy and from dream-visions and in every way in which another godly power to a man also prescribed to do anything ever whatsoever. These things, O Athenian men, are both true and easy to test.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-10-30 03:45 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 32b mid - 32e start

[32β] καὶ ἔτυχεν ἡμῶν ἡ φυλὴ Ἀντιοχὶς πρυτανεύουσα ὅτε ὑμεῖς τοὺς δέκα στρατηγοὺς τοὺς οὐκ ἀνελομένους τοὺς ἐκ τῆς ναυμαχίας ἐβουλεύσασθε ἁθρόους κρίνειν, παρανόμως, ὡς ἐν τῷ ὑστέρῳ χρόνῳ πᾶσιν ὑμῖν ἔδοξεν. τότ᾽ ἐγὼ μόνος τῶν πρυτάνεων ἠναντιώθην ὑμῖν μηδὲν ποιεῖν παρὰ τοὺς νόμους καὶ ἐναντία ἐψηφισάμην: καὶ ἑτοίμων ὄντων ἐνδεικνύναι με καὶ ἀπάγειν τῶν ῥητόρων, καὶ ὑμῶν κελευόντων καὶ βοώντων, μετὰ τοῦ

And it happened our tribe Antiochis was prytany when you determined to judge the ten generals who did not take up the men from the naval battle all by a single vote, contrary to law, as in the latter time it seemed to all of you. Then I alone of the prytany-men set myself against you, to do nothing contrary to the laws and I voted opposite: and while the orators were ready to inform against me and to arrest me, as you also urged them and cried aloud, according to

[32ξ] νόμου καὶ τοῦ δικαίου ᾤμην μᾶλλόν με δεῖν διακινδυνεύειν ἢ μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν γενέσθαι μὴ δίκαια βουλευομένων, φοβηθέντα δεσμὸν ἢ θάνατον. καὶ ταῦτα μὲν ἦν ἔτι δημοκρατουμένης τῆς πόλεως: ἐπειδὴ δὲ ὀλιγαρχία ἐγένετο, οἱ τριάκοντα αὖ μεταπεμψάμενοί με πέμπτον αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν θόλον προσέταξαν ἀγαγεῖν ἐκ Σαλαμῖνος Λέοντα τὸν Σαλαμίνιον ἵνα ἀποθάνοι, οἷα δὴ καὶ ἄλλοις ἐκεῖνοι πολλοῖς πολλὰ προσέταττον, βουλόμενοι ὡς πλείστους ἀναπλῆσαι αἰτιῶν. τότε μέντοι ἐγὼ

custom and justice, I believed indeed it was necessary for me to hazard all instead of to become in common with you wishing [to be] not just, fearing neither bondage nor death. And these things existed while still having a democratic constitution of the city: afterwards the oligarchy came to be, the Thirty in turn sending for me - fifth of four others - prescribed us to bring to the Tholos from Salamis Leon the Salaminian, in order that he should die, which they prescribed often for many others, wanting to fill as many as possible with responsibility. Then however I

[32δ] οὐ λόγῳ ἀλλ᾽ ἔργῳ αὖ ἐνεδειξάμην ὅτι ἐμοὶ θανάτου μὲν μέλει, εἰ μὴ ἀγροικότερον ἦν εἰπεῖν, οὐδ᾽ ὁτιοῦν, τοῦ δὲ μηδὲν ἄδικον μηδ᾽ ἀνόσιον ἐργάζεσθαι, τούτου δὲ τὸ πᾶν μέλει. ἐμὲ γὰρ ἐκείνη ἡ ἀρχὴ οὐκ ἐξέπληξεν, οὕτως ἰσχυρὰ οὖσα, ὥστε ἄδικόν τι ἐργάσασθαι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπειδὴ ἐκ τῆς θόλου ἐξήλθομεν, οἱ μὲν τέτταρες ᾤχοντο εἰς Σαλαμῖνα καὶ ἤγαγον Λέοντα, ἐγὼ δὲ ᾠχόμην ἀπιὼν οἴκαδε. καὶ ἴσως ἂν διὰ ταῦτα ἀπέθανον, εἰ μὴ ἡ ἀρχὴ διὰ ταχέων κατελύθη. καὶ

not with words but with deeds in turn I demonstrate that there is no care in me for death, if it is not very boorish to say, nothing whatsoever, but to work nothing unjust or profane, there is every care in me for this. For this rulership did not drive me away, though it was in this way strong, so that I would do something unjust, but when we went away from the tholos, the four departed to Salamis and brought Leon, while I went going away to me home. And perhaps because of these things I might have died, if the governent had not through swiftness been destroyed. And

32ε] τούτων ὑμῖν ἔσονται πολλοὶ μάρτυρες.

of these things for you there will be many witnesses.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-10-29 12:56 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 31d mid - 32b start

[31δ] ἐμοὶ δὲ τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν ἐκ παιδὸς ἀρξάμενον, φωνή τις γιγνομένη, ἣ ὅταν γένηται, ἀεὶ ἀποτρέπει με τοῦτο ὃ ἂν μέλλω πράττειν, προτρέπει δὲ οὔποτε. τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν ὅ μοι ἐναντιοῦται τὰ πολιτικὰ πράττειν, καὶ παγκάλως γέ μοι δοκεῖ ἐναντιοῦσθαι: εὖ γὰρ ἴστε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, εἰ ἐγὼ πάλαι ἐπεχείρησα πράττειν τὰ πολιτικὰ πράγματα, πάλαι ἂν ἀπολώλη καὶ οὔτ᾽ ἂν ὑμᾶς ὠφελήκη

And this is ruling to me from boyhood, some sound happens upon me, which whenever it should happen, this always prevents me from [doing] that which I might intend to do, and it never urges me on. This is that which opposes me practising political matters, and indeed it seems to me to have opposed me nobly: for well you know, O Athenian men, if I of old put my hand to praticising politcal matters, of old I would have been ruined and it would have been with neither any help with respect to you

[31ε] οὐδὲν οὔτ᾽ ἂν ἐμαυτόν. καί μοι μὴ ἄχθεσθε λέγοντι τἀληθῆ: οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ὅστις ἀνθρώπων σωθήσεται οὔτε ὑμῖν οὔτε ἄλλῳ πλήθει οὐδενὶ γνησίως ἐναντιούμενος καὶ διακωλύων πολλὰ ἄδικα καὶ παράνομα ἐν τῇ πόλει γίγνεσθαι, ἀλλ᾽

nor any with respect to myself. And don't be grieved at me for speaking the truth: for it is not any man who will be saved from death neither by lawfully opposing you nor anyone else of the many and hindering many injustices and lawlessnesses from happening in the city, but

[32α] ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστι τὸν τῷ ὄντι μαχούμενον ὑπὲρ τοῦ δικαίου, καὶ εἰ μέλλει ὀλίγον χρόνον σωθήσεσθαι, ἰδιωτεύειν ἀλλὰ μὴ δημοσιεύειν.

μεγάλα δ᾽ ἔγωγε ὑμῖν τεκμήρια παρέξομαι τούτων, οὐ λόγους ἀλλ᾽ ὃ ὑμεῖς τιμᾶτε, ἔργα. ἀκούσατε δή μοι τὰ συμβεβηκότα, ἵνα εἰδῆτε ὅτι οὐδ᾽ ἂν ἑνὶ ὑπεικάθοιμι παρὰ τὸ δίκαιον δείσας θάνατον, μὴ ὑπείκων δὲ ἀλλὰ κἂν ἀπολοίμην. ἐρῶ δὲ ὑμῖν φορτικὰ μὲν καὶ δικανικά, ἀληθῆ δέ. ἐγὼ γάρ, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἄλλην μὲν ἀρχὴν οὐδεμίαν

it is necessary for the one who in reality fights on behalf of justice, if he intends to save himself for even a little while, he should live privately, not in the public service.

I at least will present to you great proofs of these things, not words but that which you honour, deeds. And hear the things that have come to me, in order that you will know that I will not yield to [any]one, from beside the right on account of fearing death, lest by yielding to another I also might die. And I will say to you things which while they are vulgar and tedious are also true. For I, O Athenian men,

[32β] πώποτε ἦρξα ἐν τῇ πόλει, ἐβούλευσα δέ:

I never held any single other office in the city, but I was in the boule.
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-10-28 08:13 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 31b-31d start

[31β] οὐ γὰρ ἀνθρωπίνῳ ἔοικε τὸ ἐμὲ τῶν μὲν ἐμαυτοῦ πάντων ἠμεληκέναι καὶ ἀνέχεσθαι τῶν οἰκείων ἀμελουμένων τοσαῦτα ἤδη ἔτη, τὸ δὲ ὑμέτερον πράττειν ἀεί, ἰδίᾳ ἑκάστῳ προσιόντα ὥσπερ πατέρα ἢ ἀδελφὸν πρεσβύτερον πείθοντα ἐπιμελεῖσθαι ἀρετῆς. καὶ εἰ μέν τι ἀπὸ τούτων ἀπέλαυον καὶ μισθὸν λαμβάνων ταῦτα παρεκελευόμην, εἶχον ἄν τινα λόγον: νῦν δὲ ὁρᾶτε δὴ καὶ αὐτοὶ ὅτι οἱ κατήγοροι τἆλλα πάντα ἀναισχύντως οὕτω κατηγοροῦντες τοῦτό γε οὐχ οἷοί τε ἐγένοντο ἀπαναισχυντῆσαι

For not by human affairs it seems I have neglected all my own things and borne the neglect of my household concerns for so many years yet, while always I practiced on your affairs, coming up to each of you in private just like a father or an elder brother, persuading you to care about arete. And if I derived some advantage from these things and exhorted you with regard to these things while taking pay, it would have had some reason: but now you yourselves see that the prosecutors, while they accuse me shamefully in this way of everything else, this indeed they have not grown such to have the effrontery to do

[31ξ] παρασχόμενοι μάρτυρα, ὡς ἐγώ ποτέ τινα ἢ ἐπραξάμην μισθὸν ἢ ᾔτησα. ἱκανὸν γάρ, οἶμαι, ἐγὼ παρέχομαι τὸν μάρτυρα ὡς ἀληθῆ λέγω, τὴν πενίαν.

ἴσως ἂν οὖν δόξειεν ἄτοπον εἶναι, ὅτι δὴ ἐγὼ ἰδίᾳ μὲν ταῦτα συμβουλεύω περιιὼν καὶ πολυπραγμονῶ, δημοσίᾳ δὲ οὐ τολμῶ ἀναβαίνων εἰς τὸ πλῆθος τὸ ὑμέτερον συμβουλεύειν τῇ πόλει. τούτου δὲ αἴτιόν ἐστιν ὃ ὑμεῖς ἐμοῦ πολλάκις ἀκηκόατε πολλαχοῦ λέγοντος, ὅτι μοι θεῖόν τι καὶ

by furnishing witnesses, that I ever accomplished something for pay or that I asked for it. For I think it sufficient, that I hand over the witness that I speak truth: my poverty.

Perhaps, therefore, it might seem to be eccentric, that I as I go about, give advice in private and am busy about many things, but in public I do not dare to come up into your assembly to advise the city. But the reason for this is, which you have often heard me saying in many places, that to me some divine thing and

[31δ] δαιμόνιον γίγνεται φωνή, ὃ δὴ καὶ ἐν τῇ γραφῇ ἐπικωμῳδῶν Μέλητος ἐγράψατο.

some spiritual thing bears a sound, that indeed which in the charge that Meletos made, he mocked.
hawkwing_lb: (Bear CM beyond limit the of their bond a)
2012-10-24 04:34 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 30a - 31b start

‘ [30α]ταῦτα καὶ νεωτέρῳ καὶ πρεσβυτέρῳ ὅτῳ ἂν ἐντυγχάνω ποιήσω, καὶ ξένῳ καὶ ἀστῷ, μᾶλλον δὲ τοῖς ἀστοῖς, ὅσῳ μου ἐγγυτέρω ἐστὲ γένει. ταῦτα γὰρ κελεύει ὁ θεός, εὖ ἴστε, καὶ ἐγὼ οἴομαι οὐδέν πω ὑμῖν μεῖζον ἀγαθὸν γενέσθαι ἐν τῇ πόλει ἢ τὴν ἐμὴν τῷ θεῷ ὑπηρεσίαν. οὐδὲν γὰρ ἄλλο πράττων ἐγὼ περιέρχομαι ἢ πείθων ὑμῶν καὶ νεωτέρους καὶ πρεσβυτέρους μήτε σωμάτων ’

These things both to the young and to the old - to whoever I chance to meet - I'll do, to both foreigner and to the citizen, and especially to the citizens, so much as you're nearer kin to me. For these things the god commands, you know well, and I consider no greater good yet to belong to you in the city than my service to the god. For I go about practicing nothing else than persuading you both young and aged neither

‘ [30β] ἐπιμελεῖσθαι μήτε χρημάτων πρότερον μηδὲ οὕτω σφόδρα ὡς τῆς ψυχῆς ὅπως ὡς ἀρίστη ἔσται, λέγων ὅτι ‘οὐκ ἐκ χρημάτων ἀρετὴ γίγνεται, ἀλλ᾽ ἐξ ἀρετῆς χρήματα καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἀγαθὰ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἅπαντα καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ.’ εἰ μὲν οὖν ταῦτα λέγων διαφθείρω τοὺς νέους, ταῦτ᾽ ἂν εἴη βλαβερά: εἰ δέ τίς μέ φησιν ἄλλα λέγειν ἢ ταῦτα, οὐδὲν λέγει. πρὸς ταῦτα,’ φαίην ἄν, ‘ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἢ πείθεσθε Ἀνύτῳ ἢ μή, καὶ ἢ ἀφίετέ με ἢ μή, ὡς ἐμοῦ οὐκ ’

to care for bodies nor wealth before neither in this way very much that their soul may be as good as possible, saying that, "Excellence is not born from wealth, but from excellent wealth and all men's other good things [are born] both privately and publicly." So if by saying these things I ruin the young men, these things must be harmful: but if someone says I say other things than these, he says nothing [true]. "Regarding these things," I'd say, "O Athenian men, whether you're persuaded by Anytos or not, you will either release me or not, as

‘ [30ξ] ἂν ποιήσαντος ἄλλα, οὐδ᾽ εἰ μέλλω πολλάκις τεθνάναι.’

μὴ θορυβεῖτε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐμμείνατέ μοι οἷς ἐδεήθην ὑμῶν, μὴ θορυβεῖν ἐφ᾽ οἷς ἂν λέγω ἀλλ᾽ ἀκούειν: καὶ γάρ, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι, ὀνήσεσθε ἀκούοντες. μέλλω γὰρ οὖν ἄττα ὑμῖν ἐρεῖν καὶ ἄλλα ἐφ᾽ οἷς ἴσως βοήσεσθε: ἀλλὰ μηδαμῶς ποιεῖτε τοῦτο. εὖ γὰρ ἴστε, ἐάν με ἀποκτείνητε τοιοῦτον ὄντα οἷον ἐγὼ λέγω, οὐκ ἐμὲ μείζω βλάψετε ἢ ὑμᾶς αὐτούς: ἐμὲ μὲν γὰρ οὐδὲν ἂν βλάψειεν οὔτε Μέλητος οὔτε Ἄνυτος—οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν δύναιτο—οὐ γὰρ οἴομαι θεμιτὸν

for me, I wouldn't do otherwise, not if I am about to die many times."

Don't make a din, O Athenian men, but remain by me with regard to those things which I asked from you, not to make an uproar on account of those things which I'd say but to listen: for also, as I believe, you will have benefit by listening. For, so, I am about - uncles! - to say to you also other things on account of which perhaps you will cry out: but on no account do this. For you know well, if you kill me, being such a person as I say I am, you will not harm me more than you yourselves: for neither Meletos nor Anytos could do me any harm - it is not possible - for I do not suppose it is allowed by god

[30δ] εἶναι ἀμείνονι ἀνδρὶ ὑπὸ χείρονος βλάπτεσθαι. ἀποκτείνειε μεντἂν ἴσως ἢ ἐξελάσειεν ἢ ἀτιμώσειεν: ἀλλὰ ταῦτα οὗτος μὲν ἴσως οἴεται καὶ ἄλλος τίς που μεγάλα κακά, ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὐκ οἴομαι, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον ποιεῖν ἃ οὑτοσὶ νῦν ποιεῖ, ἄνδρα ἀδίκως ἐπιχειρεῖν ἀποκτεινύναι. νῦν οὖν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πολλοῦ δέω ἐγὼ ὑπὲρ ἐμαυτοῦ ἀπολογεῖσθαι, ὥς τις ἂν οἴοιτο, ἀλλὰ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, μή τι ἐξαμάρτητε περὶ τὴν τοῦ

for the better man to be harmed by the worse. He may, however, perhaps kill me or drive me out or revoke my citizen-rights: but with respect to these things he, perhaps, believes where someone else [that they are] great evils, but I do not believe so, but [I believe] he does himself greater with respect to those things here which he does now, to put his hand to kill a man unjustly. So now, O Athenian men, so much I need to make defence on behalf of myself, as someone might think, but on behalf of you, lest you do something in error concerning

[30ε] θεοῦ δόσιν ὑμῖν ἐμοῦ καταψηφισάμενοι. ἐὰν γάρ με ἀποκτείνητε, οὐ ῥᾳδίως ἄλλον τοιοῦτον εὑρήσετε, ἀτεχνῶς—εἰ καὶ γελοιότερον εἰπεῖν—προσκείμενον τῇ πόλει ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ὥσπερ ἵππῳ μεγάλῳ μὲν καὶ γενναίῳ, ὑπὸ μεγέθους δὲ νωθεστέρῳ καὶ δεομένῳ ἐγείρεσθαι ὑπὸ μύωπός τινος, οἷον δή μοι δοκεῖ ὁ θεὸς ἐμὲ τῇ πόλει προστεθηκέναι τοιοῦτόν τινα, ὃς ὑμᾶς ἐγείρων καὶ πείθων καὶ ὀνειδίζων ἕνα ἕκαστον

the gift of the god to you, by condemning me. For if you kill me, you will not easily find another of this kind, artlessly - if it's funnier to say so - devoted to the city by the god even as a nobleman to a great horse, and under greatness in sluggishness and in wanting be roused by some horsefly, which indeed it seems to me the god bestowed me on the city with respect to something like this, that I stirring and persuading and upbraiding each one of you

[31α] οὐδὲν παύομαι τὴν ἡμέραν ὅλην πανταχοῦ προσκαθίζων. τοιοῦτος οὖν ἄλλος οὐ ῥᾳδίως ὑμῖν γενήσεται, ὦ ἄνδρες, ἀλλ᾽ ἐὰν ἐμοὶ πείθησθε, φείσεσθέ μου: ὑμεῖς δ᾽ ἴσως τάχ᾽ ἂν ἀχθόμενοι, ὥσπερ οἱ νυστάζοντες ἐγειρόμενοι, κρούσαντες ἄν με, πειθόμενοι Ἀνύτῳ, ῥᾳδίως ἂν ἀποκτείναιτε, εἶτα τὸν λοιπὸν βίον καθεύδοντες διατελοῖτε ἄν, εἰ μή τινα ἄλλον ὁ θεὸς ὑμῖν ἐπιπέμψειεν κηδόμενος ὑμῶν. ὅτι δ᾽ ἐγὼ τυγχάνω ὢν τοιοῦτος οἷος ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ πόλει δεδόσθαι, ἐνθένδε

I won't stop all day everywhere from alighting on you. So another of this kind will not easily be born to you, O men, but if you are persuaded by me, you will spare me: and you perhaps presently by being vexed, just like sleeping men will be aroused, striking me as you're persuaded by Anytos, you'll easily put me to death, then you'd spend the remained of your life sleeping, if the god, being troubled for you, did not send some other. And I happen to be a sort of kind given by the god to the city, from this

[31β] ἂν κατανοήσαιτε:

you may perceive...
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-10-23 07:08 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 29e -30a start

‘ [29ε] καὶ ἐάν τις ὑμῶν ἀμφισβητήσῃ καὶ φῇ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, οὐκ εὐθὺς ἀφήσω αὐτὸν οὐδ᾽ ἄπειμι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐρήσομαι αὐτὸν καὶ ἐξετάσω καὶ ἐλέγξω, καὶ ἐάν μοι μὴ δοκῇ κεκτῆσθαι ἀρετήν, ’

And if one of you should dispute and say that he cares, I will not immediately leave him alone or go away, but I will ask him and examine him and accuse him, and if he shouldn't seem to me to have acquired arete,

‘ [30α] φάναι δέ, ὀνειδιῶ ὅτι τὰ πλείστου ἄξια περὶ ἐλαχίστου ποιεῖται, τὰ δὲ φαυλότερα περὶ πλείονος.

and he brings to light, I will reproach him that he does less of the worthy things of the most importance, and more of the base things.




A very brief Platonic interlude this evening. Now to dine, and make plans for getting more things done.
hawkwing_lb: (Aveline is not amused)
2012-10-22 03:42 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 29a - 29e start

[29α] δεινόν τἂν εἴη, καὶ ὡς ἀληθῶς τότ᾽ ἄν με δικαίως εἰσάγοι τις εἰς δικαστήριον, ὅτι οὐ νομίζω θεοὺς εἶναι ἀπειθῶν τῇ μαντείᾳ καὶ δεδιὼς θάνατον καὶ οἰόμενος σοφὸς εἶναι οὐκ ὤν. τὸ γάρ τοι θάνατον δεδιέναι, ὦ ἄνδρες, οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἐστὶν ἢ δοκεῖν σοφὸν εἶναι μὴ ὄντα: δοκεῖν γὰρ εἰδέναι ἐστὶν ἃ οὐκ οἶδεν. οἶδε μὲν γὰρ οὐδεὶς τὸν θάνατον οὐδ᾽ εἰ τυγχάνει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ πάντων μέγιστον ὂν τῶν ἀγαθῶν, δεδίασι δ᾽ ὡς εὖ εἰδότες

It would be terrible, as truly then if someone accuses me justly in the lawcourt, that I don't believe gods exist, being disobedient to the prophecy and fearing death and considering myself to be wise while not being. For to fear death indeed, O men, is nothing other than to think to be wise while not being: for to think to know is what one does not know. For no one knows death, if whether it chances to be greatest of all goods to man, but they fear [it] as though knowing

[29β] ὅτι μέγιστον τῶν κακῶν ἐστι. καίτοι πῶς οὐκ ἀμαθία ἐστὶν αὕτη ἡ ἐπονείδιστος, ἡ τοῦ οἴεσθαι εἰδέναι ἃ οὐκ οἶδεν; ἐγὼ δ᾽, ὦ ἄνδρες, τούτῳ καὶ ἐνταῦθα ἴσως διαφέρω τῶν πολλῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ εἰ δή τῳ σοφώτερός του φαίην εἶναι, τούτῳ ἄν, ὅτι οὐκ εἰδὼς ἱκανῶς περὶ τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου οὕτω καὶ οἴομαι οὐκ εἰδέναι: τὸ δὲ ἀδικεῖν καὶ ἀπειθεῖν τῷ βελτίονι καὶ θεῷ καὶ ἀνθρώπῳ, ὅτι κακὸν καὶ αἰσχρόν ἐστιν οἶδα. πρὸ οὖν τῶν κακῶν ὧν οἶδα ὅτι κακά ἐστιν, ἃ μὴ οἶδα εἰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ ὄντα τυγχάνει οὐδέποτε φοβήσομαι οὐδὲ φεύξομαι: ὥστε οὐδ᾽ εἴ

that it was greatest of evils. And indeed how much this ignorance is reprehensible, of considering one knows what one does not know? And I, O men, in this and from this thing perhaps I differ from many other people, and if indeed I appear to be wiser than someone, in this, that not knowing sufficiently concerning the things in Hades in this way and I don't think I know: but [I think] I do wrong even to disobey the better one either a god or a man, that it is wrong and shameful I know. So concerning the evil things which I know that are evil, which I do not know whether they happen to be good or bad, never I will fear nor flee: so that neither if

[29ξ] με νῦν ὑμεῖς ἀφίετε Ἀνύτῳ ἀπιστήσαντες, ὃς ἔφη ἢ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐ δεῖν ἐμὲ δεῦρο εἰσελθεῖν ἤ, ἐπειδὴ εἰσῆλθον, οὐχ οἷόν τ᾽ εἶναι τὸ μὴ ἀποκτεῖναί με, λέγων πρὸς ὑμᾶς ὡς εἰ διαφευξοίμην ἤδη ἂν ὑμῶν οἱ ὑεῖς ἐπιτηδεύοντες ἃ Σωκράτης διδάσκει πάντες παντάπασι διαφθαρήσονται, —εἴ μοι πρὸς ταῦτα εἴποιτε: ‘ὦ Σώκρατες, νῦν μὲν Ἀνύτῳ οὐ πεισόμεθα ἀλλ᾽ ἀφίεμέν σε, ἐπὶ τούτῳ μέντοι, ἐφ᾽ ᾧτε μηκέτι ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ζητήσει διατρίβειν μηδὲ φιλοσοφεῖν: ἐὰν δὲ ’

you set me free now, disbelieving Anytos, who said that either it is not necessary to bring me in here or, since I was brought in, not to consider it be not possible not to kill me, saying to you that if I were not already fleeing, your sons practicing the things which Socrates teaches all men will be altogether destroyed utterly - if to me concerning these things you were to say, "O Socrates, we are not persuaded by Anytos but we will release you, on this thing however, on which no longer in this search [you are] to waste time or to philosophise: but if

‘[29δ] ἁλῷς ἔτι τοῦτο πράττων, ἀποθανῇ’ —εἰ οὖν με, ὅπερ εἶπον, ἐπὶ τούτοις ἀφίοιτε, εἴποιμ᾽ ἂν ὑμῖν ὅτι ‘ἐγὼ ὑμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν, καὶ ἕωσπερ ἂν ἐμπνέω καὶ οἷός τε ὦ, οὐ μὴ παύσωμαι φιλοσοφῶν καὶ ὑμῖν παρακελευόμενός τε καὶ ἐνδεικνύμενος ὅτῳ ἂν ἀεὶ ἐντυγχάνω ὑμῶν, λέγων οἷάπερ εἴωθα, ὅτι ‘ὦ ἄριστε ἀνδρῶν, Ἀθηναῖος ὤν, πόλεως τῆς μεγίστης καὶ εὐδοκιμωτάτης εἰς σοφίαν καὶ ἰσχύν, χρημάτων μὲν οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ ἐπιμελούμενος ὅπως σοι ἔσται ὡς πλεῖστα, ’’

you should be taken still practicing this, you'll die," - so if you release me, as you'd say, on these conditions, I'd say to you that, "I embrace you, O Athenian me, and I love you, but I will rather obey the god than you, and as long as I can breathe, I won't cease from loving wisdom and encouraging you and pointing out to you to anyone of you with whom I meet always, saying just as I'm accustomed, that, "O best of men, being Athenian, the greatest city and the best-famed in wisdom and might, are you not ashamed to attend to riches in such a manner as will be to you greatest,

‘‘ [29ε] καὶ δόξης καὶ τιμῆς, φρονήσεως δὲ καὶ ἀληθείας καὶ τῆς ψυχῆς ὅπως ὡς βελτίστη ἔσται οὐκ ἐπιμελῇ οὐδὲ φροντίζεις;’

and glory and honour, when for purpose and for truth and for the soul in the manner as best it will be, you neither care nor consider?"
hawkwing_lb: (It can't get any worse... today)
2012-10-21 07:44 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 27c mid - 29a start

[28ξ] ‘ὦ παῖ, εἰ τιμωρήσεις Πατρόκλῳ τῷ ἑταίρῳ τὸν φόνον καὶ Ἕκτορα ἀποκτενεῖς, αὐτὸς ἀποθανῇ—αὐτίκα γάρ τοι,’ φησί, ‘μεθ᾽ Ἕκτορα πότμος ἑτοῖμος’ —ὁ δὲ τοῦτο ἀκούσας τοῦ μὲν θανάτου καὶ τοῦ κινδύνου ὠλιγώρησε, πολὺ δὲ μᾶλλον ’

"O child, if you avenge the murder of Patroclus your companion and kill Hector, yourself will die - immediately," she said, "after Hector your destiny is prepared." And he, hearing this, took no heed of death and of danger, and greatly indeed

‘ [28δ] δείσας τὸ ζῆν κακὸς ὢν καὶ τοῖς φίλοις μὴ τιμωρεῖν, ‘αὐτίκα,’ φησί, ‘τεθναίην, δίκην ἐπιθεὶς τῷ ἀδικοῦντι, ἵνα μὴ ἐνθάδε μένω καταγέλαστος παρὰ νηυσὶ κορωνίσιν ἄχθος ἀρούρης.’ μὴ αὐτὸν οἴει φροντίσαι θανάτου καὶ κινδύνου;’

οὕτω γὰρ ἔχει, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τῇ ἀληθείᾳ: οὗ ἄν τις ἑαυτὸν τάξῃ ἡγησάμενος βέλτιστον εἶναι ἢ ὑπ᾽ ἄρχοντος ταχθῇ, ἐνταῦθα δεῖ, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, μένοντα κινδυνεύειν, μηδὲν ὑπολογιζόμενον μήτε θάνατον μήτε ἄλλο μηδὲν πρὸ τοῦ αἰσχροῦ. ἐγὼ οὖν δεινὰ ἂν εἴην εἰργασμένος, ὦ ἄνδρες

fearing lest he live an unworthy life and not avenge his friends, he said, "Immediately I may die, after laying justice onto the wrong-doer, so that I don't stay here, absurd beside the crook-beaked ships, a burden of the land." You don't think he took thought for death and danger?

It's this way, O Athenian men, in truth: wherever someone would array himself, considering it best to be [there], or is arrayed by his leader, it necessary in that place, as it seems to me, to stay and face danger, no one taking account of either death or any other think more than shame. So I would have done something terrible, O men

[28ε] Ἀθηναῖοι, εἰ ὅτε μέν με οἱ ἄρχοντες ἔταττον, οὓς ὑμεῖς εἵλεσθε ἄρχειν μου, καὶ ἐν Ποτειδαίᾳ καὶ ἐν Ἀμφιπόλει καὶ ἐπὶ Δηλίῳ, τότε μὲν οὗ ἐκεῖνοι ἔταττον ἔμενον ὥσπερ καὶ ἄλλος τις καὶ ἐκινδύνευον ἀποθανεῖν, τοῦ δὲ θεοῦ τάττοντος, ὡς ἐγὼ ᾠήθην τε καὶ ὑπέλαβον, φιλοσοφοῦντά με δεῖν ζῆν καὶ ἐξετάζοντα ἐμαυτὸν καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους, ἐνταῦθα δὲ φοβηθεὶς ἢ θάνατον

of Athens, if when the commanders marshaled me, the ones you chose to command me, even in Potidaia and in Amphipolis and at Delion, at that time I remained where they marshaled me just like anyone else too and I ran the risk of dying, but when I was marshaled by the god, as I believed and assumed, that it was necessary for me to live loving wisdom and examining myself and others, from here because I feared either death

[29α] ἣ ἄλλ᾽ ὁτιοῦν πρᾶγμα λίποιμι τὴν τάξιν.

or any other thing whatsoever, I'd quit my station
hawkwing_lb: (Default)
2012-10-20 08:50 pm
Entry tags:

Plato, Apology, 28b - 28c middle

[28β]ἴσως ἂν οὖν εἴποι τις: ‘εἶτ᾽ οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοιοῦτον ἐπιτήδευμα ἐπιτηδεύσας ἐξ οὗ κινδυνεύεις νυνὶ ἀποθανεῖν;’ ἐγὼ δὲ τούτῳ ἂν δίκαιον λόγον ἀντείποιμι, ὅτι ‘οὐ καλῶς λέγεις, ὦ ἄνθρωπε, εἰ οἴει δεῖν κίνδυνον ὑπολογίζεσθαι τοῦ ζῆν ἢ τεθνάναι ἄνδρα ὅτου τι καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελός ἐστιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ ἐκεῖνο μόνον σκοπεῖν ὅταν πράττῃ, πότερον δίκαια ἢ ἄδικα πράττει, καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ ἔργα ἢ κακοῦ. φαῦλοι ’

So perhaps someone would say, "Then aren't you ashamed, O Socrates, practicing such business out of which you risk now to die?" And I in this I'd answer a just argument, that, "You don't speak well, O fellow, if you suppose it's necessary for a man to take account of danger of life or of death, of whom there is even a little merit, but not to consider this only, whenever he may accomplish something, whether he accomplished justice or wrongdoing, and the work of a good man or an evil one.

‘ [28ξ] γὰρ ἂν τῷ γε σῷ λόγῳ εἶεν τῶν ἡμιθέων ὅσοι ἐν Τροίᾳ τετελευτήκασιν οἵ τε ἄλλοι καὶ ὁ τῆς Θέτιδος υἱός, ὃς τοσοῦτον τοῦ κινδύνου κατεφρόνησεν παρὰ τὸ αἰσχρόν τι ὑπομεῖναι ὥστε, ἐπειδὴ εἶπεν ἡ μήτηρ αὐτῷ προθυμουμένῳ Ἕκτορα ἀποκτεῖναι, θεὸς οὖσα, οὑτωσί πως, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι:

For in your argument, cheap would be those of the demigods who had met their end in Troy, the others and the son of Thetis, who so much despised danger alongside to abide any disgrace that, when his mother said to him when he was zealous to kill Hector, since she was a god, something like this, as I believe: